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Post by stefano on Jul 15, 2020 13:47:12 GMT
I agree entirely with the sentiment to oppose all racism and prejudice in football (and indeed in life generally which is far more important than football), but I do have doubts about the truthfulness of the story surrounding this footballer. It is fact that he wasn't picked to play for England. However he was playing for Plymouth Argyle at the time in the regional third division. Plymouth Argyle is not a renowned supply line for the England team, and England do not normally look as far down as the third tier when selecting their team. I am sure that he was a fine player, but playing at the level he was could it be said that he was good enough to play for England? I don't know the answer, and I doubt anybody else could put hand on heart and say they are absolutely sure of the answer.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jul 15, 2020 16:22:31 GMT
I agree entirely with the sentiment to oppose all racism and prejudice in football (and indeed in life generally which is far more important than football), but I do have doubts about the truthfulness of the story surrounding this footballer. It is fact that he wasn't picked to play for England. However he was playing for Plymouth Argyle at the time in the regional third division. Plymouth Argyle is not a renowned supply line for the England team, and England do not normally look as far down as the third tier when selecting their team. I am sure that he was a fine player, but playing at the level he was could it be said that he was good enough to play for England? I don't know the answer, and I doubt anybody else could put hand on heart and say they are absolutely sure of the answer. Only black professional footballer in England at the time so he was breaking ground anyway and would have had enough barriers to overcome to deserve a statue anyway. Hopefully someone wasn’t playing a cruel joke but his manager was told of his selection. I think it wasn’t until 1978 that the first black player got an England cap. You might be interested in the news report on this -
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Post by plainmoorpete on Jul 15, 2020 18:34:53 GMT
It is argued by some that Paul Reaney of Leeds United was the first black player to represent England in 1968, but Reaney always regarded himself as white. Whether that was because he saw the abuse handed out to Albert Johannsonn and the effect it had on him I don't know.
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Post by stefano on Jul 15, 2020 19:14:16 GMT
I agree entirely with the sentiment to oppose all racism and prejudice in football (and indeed in life generally which is far more important than football), but I do have doubts about the truthfulness of the story surrounding this footballer. It is fact that he wasn't picked to play for England. However he was playing for Plymouth Argyle at the time in the regional third division. Plymouth Argyle is not a renowned supply line for the England team, and England do not normally look as far down as the third tier when selecting their team. I am sure that he was a fine player, but playing at the level he was could it be said that he was good enough to play for England? I don't know the answer, and I doubt anybody else could put hand on heart and say they are absolutely sure of the answer. Only black professional footballer in England at the time so he was breaking ground anyway and would have had enough barriers to overcome to deserve a statue anyway. Hopefully someone wasn’t playing a cruel joke but his manager was told of his selection. I think it wasn’t until 1978 that the first black player got an England cap. You might be interested in the news report on this - He may possibly have been the only black player in England at the time though that is questionable. There had been black players before him though including one who did play at the top level with Preston North End in the 1880's. Jon has highlighted many times in his excellent research on the history of our club how inaccurate some reports from the past are. Janners are renowned for having a chip on their shoulders and bigging up anything Argyle. As stated before I have doubts about the story. 3rd division regional league footballers were not in the England team. Didn't click on the video as doubt it is relevant to what I said but I hope it was of interest to anybody who did.
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Post by plainmoorpete on Jul 15, 2020 22:10:26 GMT
The 1880s Preston player Stefano refers to is Arthur Wharton, a goal keeper. He actually left Preston in 1888, just before the inaugural Football League season, however he is the first black player to play in a first division match whilst at Sheffield United against Sunderland in 1895. I agree with Stefano's scepticism about Leslie's international credentials when you consider how very few 3rd tier club players have ever appeared for England, I would also doubt he was the only black player of his era, it's unfortunate but black people in the past tend to get air brushed out of history.
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Post by plainmoorpete on Jul 15, 2020 22:18:39 GMT
Actually I wonder has this story about Jack Leslie's international credentials got conflated with the story of Jimmy Peters, a rugby player who at one time played for Plymouth and Devon among others and is definitely the first black player to represent England at rugby union? Given that I would have thought a statue to Peters would be more appropriate since he had achieved an historic first.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jul 15, 2020 23:06:19 GMT
Jon has highlighted many times in his excellent research on the history of our club how inaccurate some reports from the past are. Janners are renowned for having a chip on their shoulders and bigging up anything Argyle. As stated before I have doubts about the story. 3rd division regional league footballers were not in the England team. Have moved a chunk of posts on to a new thread as they all relate to this topic. Stefano is part right and he is part wrong. A third division footballer would be highly unlikely to be selected for the annual World Cup Final with Scotland. Against Ireland, it was a very different story and the net would be cast far and wide. Many amateurs and third division players did play for England. Jack Leslie would be and was in with a chance. We will never know the full truth, but we do know some facts. When the team for the Ireland game was announced in the press, Jack Leslie was listed as a travelling reserve. Jack Leslie did not travel with the team to Ireland. When asked for the reason why Leslie did not travel, the FA denied that he had ever been selected as travelling reserve! Something very fishy there. Why pull the fake news ploy? There could be genuine reasons why a travelling reserve did not travel. His club could have asked for his release seeing as he was not due to play anyway. So why did the FA say they had not selected him when the press reports where clear that they had? Not conclusive evidence, but certainly fits in with having second thoughts due to his colour. On balance of probability, I believe this to be true. As far as the story that he had originally been in the starting lineup, I do not believe that to be true although again I am not certain. If the FA altered the starting lineup to leave him out, why on earth would they have still named him to the press as a travelling reserve? They would surely have just left him out altogether. Why go through the embarrassment of announcing him as a travelling reserve and then have to pretend that they had not selected him as a travelling reserve? Makes no sense at all. Where did the story that he was in the original eleven come from? It seems Jack Leslie believed it to be true. Could be a misremembering or mis-telling or could be a genuine misunderstanding or miscommunication at the time. Leslie recalled that the Argyle manager told him he was in the team. Who told the Argyle manager? Did they say in the team or in the travelling party? Did they say travelling party and he thought that meant team? Or did he tell Leslie he was in the travelling party and Leslie thought he meant team? We don't know and we never will.
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Post by stefano on Jul 16, 2020 0:25:30 GMT
Many interesting points and I suppose the reality is we don't know the actual truth and never will now. I was interested to hear of the Rugby Union player who played for Plymouth, Devon, and England. May be a stronger case than our footballer as he did play in the national team on merit.
A football hero for me is Akinfenwa. A character and a half who time after time gets an unlikely club promoted. Playing at the same sort of level though as Jack Leslie did.....Akinfenwa as an England player? Well no! But Akinfenwa as the first name on the team sheet in the 3rd or 4th tier? Most definitely!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 16:22:24 GMT
Even if I wasn’t a Trust sceptic at the best of times, I’d still have severe doubts over their joint statement claim that Leslie’s ‘name was removed from the team sheet when officials discovered that he was black’.
Did any such team sheet exist, or have been more than a first draft ?
Let’s be especially kind to the Argyle manager, and remembering that the England selection committee was made up of a group of managers and trainers at the time. Might the Argyle boss have heard on the managerial grapevine that his player was highly tipped to get an International run out against the Irish ?
Why not give your player a boost, hopefully giving him extra confidence so that he might play even better for Argyle, now assured that you didn’t necessarily need to be at a big club in order to get a call up ?
But it really would be nice to know how far in advance of the match this teamsheet that the Trusts refer to, had been drawn up ? Might it even have been compiled as far back as September, for a game not due to be played until the latter part of October ?
"I did hear that The FA had come to have another look at me” confesses Leslie. And with the game not due to take place until 24th October, there would have been time to have another look at several of the players, including Billy Walker of Aston Villa.
Perhaps Walker played out of his skin, when he was watched again, while the F.A scout who came to Home Park got served a dodgy Dewdney’s pasty, and witnessed Leslie have a stinker of a game.
As rjdgull shows us, by way of video, by Tuesday 6th October, The Nottingham Journal updates readers with the latest on plans for the game against Ireland, with Leslie joining Nuttall of Bolton as one of the intended substitutes. Demoted from starter to substitute by now, or was that ‘team sheet’ never more than a figment of a Left Wing activist’s 21st century imagination ?
But either way, nothing's set in stone, and more can change as there’s another two and a half weeks to go before the match, and possibly a further two league matches to get through.
Saturday 10th October, and Huddersfield left back Sam Wadsworth dislocates his elbow, and has to drop out. So it’s back to the selection committee. Do you re-jig things and promote either Leslie or Nuttall to the starting eleven ? No, you bring in a specialist left back to replace the crocked left back. And so Newcastle’s 35 year old left back Francis Hudspeth is brought in, his defensive skills overriding the lack of diversity he’ll add to the team.
So just what was the state of that squad in the last weeks before they made tracks for Ireland ? How can we be sure that a couple of key defenders weren’t carrying knocks and already warning they couldn’t guarantee they’d last 90 minutes, let alone guide new cap Hudspeth through his first international ? Maybe by the time we were heading for October 24th it was a couple of defenders that were most needed as back up substitutes, and not free scoring Leslie, or Nuttall of Bolton ? To what extent did the selection committee have to return to the drawing board to reconfigure the squad for Ireland due to the usual footballing reasons ?
As we haven’t the foggiest, and because this is 2020, there’s only one conclusion to be drawn of course, and consequently ‘RACISM !!!’ is being shouted from the rooftops, as the incontrovertible explanation for Jack Leslie being at Home Park and scoring two goals for Argyle as they defeated Bournemouth, on the same afternoon as England were drawing 0-0 in Belfast.
Hopefully Jack’s statue can be quickly agreed upon, so that it doesn’t become a distraction from the fight to force the racially offensive name of Exeter ‘Chiefs’ to be changed as soon as possible. We seem to be engulfed in current or historic racism wherever we look in Devon presently, and there’s no nipping up to Bristol to escape from it. Let’s hope for better times soon.
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Post by Jon on Jul 16, 2020 23:25:03 GMT
Actually I wonder has this story about Jack Leslie's international credentials got conflated with the story of Jimmy Peters, a rugby player who at one time played for Plymouth and Devon among others and is definitely the first black player to represent England at rugby union? Given that I would have thought a statue to Peters would be more appropriate since he had achieved an historic first. You are missing the vital point that football is the world game, whereas Rugby Union is just a silly game with rules nobody understands and a ball that isn't even ball-shaped. Jimmy Peters was a remarkable man though - even if he did play a silly sport. I see Devon selected him to play against South Africa in 1906 and called the South Africans' bluff when they threatened to refuse to play. In contrast, London-based England selectors conveniently dropped him from the England team to play South Africa shorty afterwards. It would be over 52 years before Londoners finally caught up with Devon's more progressive attitude on race and dared stand up to South Africa. Even then, the MCC initially bottled it by leaving Basil D'Oliveira out of the touring squad even though he had just scored 158 in an Ashes test.
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Post by Jon on Jul 16, 2020 23:52:19 GMT
We will never know the whole truth, but the British Newspaper Archive means we can very easily see what was and was not reported in the press. The England team and reserves were announced in the papers on Tuesday 6 October. There were quite a few changes to team and reserves before the game on Saturday 24 October. All very carefully explained in the press except for the absence of Leslie which was only "explained" by the FA claiming that his selection never happened when it clearly did. Left-back changed twice. Sam Wadsworth broke his arm. He was replaced by Horace Cope who suffered a knee ligament injury and was replaced by Frank Hudspeth. Bolton withdrew one reserve Harry Nuttall claiming he was injured. They then tried to pick him for a league game but the FA stopped them from doing so. He was replaced by Alf Baker of Arsenal - a wing-half for a wing-half. The Athletic News of October 19 lists Stan Earle as travelling reserve instead of Leslie with no explanation given. Earle, born just down the road from Leslie in Stratford, was an inside forward so like for like.
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Post by plainmoorpete on Jul 17, 2020 2:46:41 GMT
You are missing the vital point that football is the world game, whereas Rugby Union is just a silly game with rules nobody understands and a ball that isn't even ball-shaped. I realise this is off topic but I never been able to find out why soccer, which you rightly call the world's game, is the dominate sport in every nation on the planet except the white ruled former British colonies, ie USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, all of whose major winter sport is either rugby or a derivation thereof.
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Post by stefano on Jul 17, 2020 5:45:46 GMT
I love Jon's irony banging on about Rugby Union being a 'silly game' and then starts waxing lyrical about cricket. Nothing is sillier than cricket!
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Post by plainmoorpete on Jul 17, 2020 12:31:44 GMT
I love Jon's irony banging on about Rugby Union being a 'silly game' and then starts waxing lyrical about cricket. Nothing is sillier than cricket! Golf?
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Post by rjdgull on Jul 18, 2020 6:42:20 GMT
I love Jon's irony banging on about Rugby Union being a 'silly game' and then starts waxing lyrical about cricket. Nothing is sillier than cricket! No idea what you are talking about! Just because there are terms like “silly point, dolly, sledging, long leg, googly, chinaman, gardening, hutch, box, reverse swing and bouncer does not make it silly. A very civilised game where you stop for lunch and afternoon tea and even after 5 days there doesn’t have to be a winner. There is also the little matter of England being World Champions in the One Day Game.
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