Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 21, 2008 15:36:58 GMT
Looking at Bartons pictures of the Leeds game,makes one look back to what football was like so many years ago. Football where the ball was a lace-up leather thing, that sure hurt your head when you went to head it and it never bent in the air like the todays modern ball does.
Some much older member on here, will remember being at some of yesteryear match's and will know how the game really compared then, to the modern game our younger member will only know now.
So I ask two different questions one aimed at the older members and the other aimed at the. younger members
To the older members, do you think football back in the 50's, 60's and maybe even the 70's was a far better game than todays modern game. Was it a much better atmosphere at games, were the players better to watch as maybe they were more honest( IE no diving all over the place etc) and as the ball only went straight were the players really more skillful.
To the younger members, you would have seen pictures and even footage of the games played yesteryear, based on what you have seem, would you have preferred to have been born back then and be a part of that time? or do you look at the footage and think the game is so much better now than it was then.
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merse
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Post by merse on Dec 21, 2008 15:56:52 GMT
, do you think football back in the 50's, 60's and maybe even the 70's was a far better game than todays modern game. Was it a much better atmosphere at games, were the players better to watch as maybe they were more honest( IE no diving all over the place etc) and as the ball only went straight were the players really more skillful.  Do you know, (and this might surprise you coming from me) I'm not so sure it was better...................different for sure, but better? Equipment and facilities are vastly superior now and present a more favourable stage on which to perform. But naked, blatant altering of the interpretation of the laws of the game in favour of just one factor of play (namely, attacking) has to my way of thinking devalued the obvious improvement in technique brought about by the establishment of a thoughtful and progressive approach to coaching from the very earliest of ages. When I stand and marvel at my little boy strutting his stuff on a state of the art 3G pitch with a suitably sized and weighted ball under the instruction of fully qualified and motivated coaches and compare it with myself at that age struggling to kick a full sized leather ball that came up to my knees on clumpy grass that reached my ankles, I smile a sad smile tinged with the realisation that the opportunity to tap so much individual potential in those days was thrown away. The same goes for the spectating side of the game. For years we so rightly comlained of primitive facilities, yet gave it our all as fanatical fans. Now we've got the facilities we've seemingly lost the passion.......................what is the answer?  |
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Post by capitalgull on Dec 21, 2008 16:20:53 GMT
I wouldn't say football is any better now than the late 70s when I started watching. It's no more exciting even though levels of fitness are better (by that I mean in terms of physiotherapy and the ways players are 'kept' fit and not in terms of natural fitness)...but the weirdest thing about watching games from the 70s/early 80s now is the old backpass to the goalie. That really did slow the game down and I'd imagine means that the average amount of goals scored now is higher than it was (don't know if Jon/Downs can confirm or not?).
But it certainly gave defenders a real way out of trouble to know they could just nudge the ball back to the keeper and have him pick the ball up!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2008 18:40:44 GMT
Better or worse? I don't know. As Merse says it's......different.
Looking back and making comparisons is usually fraught with difficulty. For me, distinction between history and nostalgia is crucial. I like historical context but loathe all the "it was better in my day" stuff. A problem is we see things differently - and respond to them differently - at each stage of our lives. The past often has a rosy tint but, just because we look back, it shouldn't mean we think it was better.
In the Torquay United context, there's a lot on this site about the mid to late 1960s. That's partly because of the age of some of us, mainly because the evidence shows it was an exceptional time for the club. But ask me about the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and now and I'll say that - loss of Football League status notwithstanding - there's an awful lot to appreciate about what's currently happening at Plainmoor.
Wider than that, I confess I don't watch much top-flight football thesedays. Most of my big-match memories relate to the 1970s and 1980s when I regularly attended top matches. A great time for me as a fan, but how does that era fit the wider scheme of things? English teams did well in Europe but I don't think it was a Golden Age. It was certainly spicy (and sometimes ugly) - which appealed to somebody in his late teens and twenties - but it also had plenty of great games and cracking players. It was ever thus - and ever will be. Merse makes a great point about rule changes being introduced to the benefit of the attacker. I think is generally laudable but we don't want football to be basketball and when I look back twenty or thirty years it's some of the great defensive partnerships - McFarland and Todd; Lawrenson and Hansen - I remember the most.
I'll declare considerable ignorance about today's top-flight stuff. I've seen a couple of games at Newcastle in recent seasons - a drab one against Arsenal and an engrossing one against Spurs. I also saw Arsenal v Twente earlier this season and couldn't take my eyes off it. And, being there in the stadium in Aveiro during Euro 2004, I found Netherlands v Czech Republic absolutely exhilarating. I suspect that, when modern football is very good, it's compelling. And, at heart, I can't accept things intrinsically get worse (but people tell me they do).
It's even more complex when you look at admission prices, atmosphere, commercialism, facilities and the whole culture of football. Well, football has always been a product of its time. We live in 2008, rather than 1968, so it'll be different. Let's not get misty-eyed, football has been commercial since the formation of the Football League in 1888.
Although I still love the football experience, I'm not sure how I'd respond if it was costing me £35-40 a throw. I can rant about the bland - and sometimes choreograped - stadium atmosphere, plastic fans, overpaid players and lack of edge. But do I want the bigotry, racism, negative tactics, tackles from behind (quite enjoyed some of those but...), occasionally dangerous conditions and general unpleasantness you more often encountered in the past?
Well, that was then and this is now.
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Post by stewart on Dec 21, 2008 20:08:56 GMT
I wouldn't say that football in the 50s and 60s was better, but it was certainly better to watch as a spectacle.
In those days there were many great individual players who thrilled crowds with their dribbling, and technique in terms of kicking and heading the ball was far more important. Players in the modern era have to do everything in a hurry, and as a result correct technique has suffered badly.
There were no systems and no managers standing on the touch line yelling and whistling to tell players what to do. Managers picked the team and left it to their players to sort out the tactics. I often wonder how top players these days feel about being told how to play by managers who were vastly inferior as players. It wouldn't have happened in the old days.
For me, the most depressing thing about modern football is the obsession with keeping possession of the ball. For the neutral observer, it is extremely boring, however it seems that the younger generation have accepted it as the natural and only way to play.
Bringing on substitutes in the last few minutes is something else which baffles me, as often they do not even get to touch the ball.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 21, 2008 20:19:56 GMT
I would expect Stuart that many a player has felt very unhappy at being shouted from the dugout, by a manager who had never really made it as a player.
Managers only make changes at the very end of the games, simply to waste time, or try and break the pattern of play, if his team were under attack with only minute to go and holding on to a slender one nil lead.I do agree that keep seeing the ball played across the back, then up to a midfielder, only to see it go back to a defender and across the back again, bores me to tears as well.
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Post by chrish on Dec 21, 2008 20:36:16 GMT
I started watching football in 1980 when I was taken to my first Torquay match although it wasn't until I was a bit older than I began to appreciate it more and go to matches more often. At our level I don't think that the game itself has changed that much apart from the fitness levels, the backpass rule and of course those very tight shorts masquerading as thongs (Mexico 86).
However the top end of the game has changed an awful lot. Money has poured in the top level of English football since the Premier League was founded. Clubs have gone from the odd foreign player in the ranks into clubs recruiting top (and not so top) quality foreign talent and in Arsenal's and Man Utd's case actually nicking the likes of Anelka, Fabregas and Rafael Possebon from competing foreign clubs at a very young age.
The problem is I find that the without the odd Hull City or Stoke City causing a kerfuffle by not playing the game according to Wenger and sticking one up one of the bigger clubs. I find it distinctly sterile and very boring. The characters of the 1970's, 1980's and to a lesser extent the very early 1990s don't appear to exist anymore.
When I was growing up the huge icons of the game were the likes of Norman Whiteside, Kevin Keegan, Bryan Robson, Remi Moses, John Barnes, Frank Stapleton, Pat Jennings, Ian Rush, Jimmy Case, Chris Waddle, Mick Hardford, Jan Molby, Mark Hughes, Steve "Headband" Foster, Bruce Grobelaar, Cyrille Regis, Peter Shilton, Big Nev, Glenn Hoddle. There doesn't seem to any huge characters left in the game anymore. The last true character of the Premier League was probably Eric Cantona.
I also believe that the cup competitions have suffered a bit since the early 1990's. I can remember every FA Cup final from 1981 to early 1990s but I can't remember a decent one since then with the exception of the Liverpool V West Ham classic a few years ago. European competitions have lost a bit of the old sparkle and intrigue of what they had. The Champions League format is better than it was a couple of years ago when they got rid of the second utterly pointless group stage but it's still too easy for the big clubs to have a reasonably easy passage into the quarter finals. I still don't believe that a team who fails in the Champions League should qualify for the later rounds of the UEFA cup which is a far more interesting competition than the Elite Champions League, even if it has got a daft league format as well. When I was growing up, the next round draw of the European cup was almost like a geography lesson. I used to love finding out where these teams came from and it was all the more intriguing that a decent amount of clubs came from behind the Iron Curtain. Now its the more or less the same clubs every year. Its like this because the money is so good. A few seasons in the Champions league for a club in a weak league means that as long as they spend wisely no other club in that country will be able to compete for a Champions League space.
There have been one or two welcome surprise editions to the competition this year in the shape of Romanian team CFR Cluj, BATE Borisov of Belarus and Anorthosis Famagusta FC of Cyprus who put the wind up both Greek giants Panathinaikos in the group stage and Olympiacos in the qualifying rounds. They are managed by advertising board kicking maniac Timur Ketsbaia, once of Newcastle and Wolves. Another little bit of trivia is that during the 3-1 home win over Panathinaikos a bloke called Hawar Mulla Mohammed scored, making him the first Iraqi to score in the Champions League! Anorthosis no longer play in Famagusta and have been based in Larnaca since the Turkish invaded back in 1974 and Famagusta became part of Turkish Cyprus.
But however promising this is, all the above clubs battled gamely but failed to qualify even for a consolation spot in the UEFA cup. To me the magic of what football is all about has been eroded by how important money is in football. When I was a mere lad, the rich clubs were all Italian. Now most of them have MFI style balance sheets. The top players now either come here or go to a big club in Spain.
But the trick is to support a lower level league could and be patient in the national and international competitions and sit back in satisfaction when watching Arsenal put on a display of sublime unplayable football and then a week later watch them impode against a streetwise side from the potteries employing a "they don't like it up em" style of football and wheel on a bloke with a dodgy shoulder as a modern day Trebuchet to launch the ball into the danger zone.
It doesn't happen often enough for my like these days.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 21, 2008 20:45:59 GMT
A great post and a very good read Chris, so many good posts today to read. I do wonder who is going to be the Christmas number one and win the first ever Christmas Poster Of The Week award  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2008 22:59:58 GMT
Excellent post from Chris Hayes! Read it if you haven't done so already. It got me thinking about so many changes. A mixture of good and bad..... Squad players who never play but get paid £10,000 a week.....virtually entire teams of substitutes (is it seven in the FA Cup now?).....shirts bearing the number "48".....players (of whom you've never heard) who come from Guingamp, play once (usually for Newcastle) and then go to the Ukraine.....loans: not just season-long but also to rivals in the same league.....the rise of the season-ticket holder (no longer just the posh buggers in the main stand).....the age profile of Premier League crowds getting steadily older. Season ticket holders showing a reluctance to buy tickets for cup ties (so a 31,000 crowd for a league game is followed by a 16,000 turn-out for the cup).....wizzened old pros on the telly telling you " it's the league that really matters" (winning it, getting promoted, avoiding promotion, avoiding relegation, making sure you get relegated, chasing the play-offs when you're in 14th place, consolidating 14th place).....replica shirts (at least 319,000 of the XXL size on Tyneside).....AFC This, That and the Other. The media.....wall-to-wall football on the telly (it's not just Don Arnold on Westward Sports Desk now, you know).....more ex-pros working as pundits than there were ever professional footballers in the first place.....Helen (bless her) as your celebrity fan rather than Peter Cook.....96-page football supplements in the papers (including right-shoulder-shouts-per-game ratios for every Premier League player).....stats that even sad gits like me find incomprehensible. Brilliantly-produced programmes, plenty to read but no chance of writing the sodding team changes on such a glossy surface....the internet (what would we do without this wonderful site but, boy, hasn't the web changed the way we follow the game?).....the attendance and mileage charts at www.tonykempster.co.uk (give that man the Turner Prize), The internationalisation of our game.....players from all over the world (it's not just Ossie and Ricky these days).....English football's love affair with French players (Simb, Sissoko, Chalqi et al).....Brazilian internationals playing for Hull (and not rugby league ones either).....the footballing geo-politics of the break up of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc (more countries = more fixtures at international and club level; the flow of players; Llanelli playing Latvian opposition in the middle of July).....Russian wealth.....the rise of the African player (amidst fears of exploitation and the future of the game in Africa).....the rise of the agent (including many a dodgy dealer). The Champions League (is it me or is it rather overblown?).....the ever-changing and ever-declining UEFA Cup (give me strength).....the St Pauli experience (it's about time I signed up).....Anorthosis Famagusta in the Champions League.....English stadiums with names such as the Reebok, the Galpharm, the Fraser Eagle and the Matchroom. And, yes Chris, you're right about the lack of characters (same in cricket as well, what with all those helmets and Kolpaks). But better or worse? I still don't know. But it's still fun and a good game, isn't it? |
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Post by chrish on Dec 22, 2008 20:34:24 GMT
Fun? Haha! That reminds of a comment made by a writer in When Saturday Comes magazine in reaction to a pre match balloon at a Cardiff play off final that affected a Sheffield Wednesday player so badly that he missed a golden chance. The writer said in disgust "A balloon? Football's not meant to be fun you bastards!"
I like to think that football is more than fun alone otherwise we wouldn't be supporting almost 5 divisions of professional football. Nobody else in the world supports football like do in this country. Not all of us can support a sucessful side but we're not in it for the that are we. Its just a bonus to do well now and again. It makes me very proud to think that we support our local clubs to such an extent. I think this has always been the case with the lower divisions as Barton's wonderful find with the 1949 attendance figures. I would hope that the current situation with the Global business that is the Premiership is that more of us either priced out of watching the match or just disillusioned with watching it in general would reject it and start actively going to matches.
If this doesn't happen I have a huge fear that a whole generation of young kids will group up never actually going to a live match of football. I think its great that people on here such as Merse and EalingGull take their little ones along to watch Torquay play, even though sometimes they might not enjoy it as much as their dads. ;D
Most of my work colleagues are long time supporters of big clubs and although they take the rise out of me for supporting lowly Torquay most of them now look out for our results. I get the impression that most of them think that there's something lacking in the current set up. How can you get excited about football when you can't ever see the players close up?
I'm not too bothered about the amount of foreign players in the game as we live in a world where its very easy for people to migrate from one country to another in order to ply their trade. I'm surprised that they aren't more Central/Eastern European players in the lower league despite the best efforts of the Czech Charles Kennedy and his mad mother.
Another surprise is that considering the frontiers of Europe are nowadays so pourous (according to the Daily Mail anyway;) )there's not many English players playing in different leagues. I recently read an article about Glenn Hoddle's academy in Spain which is trying to help young english players play at Spanish clubs. I guess there are two big factors to explain why English players don't seem to travel very well. One is the money you can earn over here and the other is the complete lack of English managers plying their trade overseas. Everybody remembers El Tel at Barcelona, Howard Kendall at Bilbao, Bobby Robson at PSV, John Toshack at Real Sociedad and Big Fat Ron locking horns with the fatter and madder Jesus Gil at Atlético Madrid for 96 days before he was sacked and replaced by his assistant Colin Addison. At the moment only the much maligned Steve McClaren at Twente Enschede and Peter Reid managing the Thai national team have reasonably high profile jobs abroad. Bruce Rioch got the sack from Aalborg in October this year. Chris Coleman tried and failed at Real Sociedad, who are also known for once signing Kevin Richardson, Dalian Atkinson and John Aldridge. Dalian Atkinson also played for Fenerbace in Turkey the same time Graeme Souness was busy planting flags and buying the likes of Dean Saunders, Barry Venison, Mike Marsh and a young Brad Freidel. A few years later Kevin Campbell had a 7 month stay at Trabzonspor cut short after the President of Trabzonspor, Mehmet Ali Yýlmaz, who called him a "discoloured cannibal" and also criticised him by saying "We bought him as a goal machine, but he appeared to be a washing machine". Usually when a British player moves abroad its to a minor league and its usually a case of last chance saloon.
Funnily enough despite the numbers of foreign players increasing the last two big management appointments, Redknapp and Allardyce, signal a possible return to the old school. Perhaps Wenger will feel even more lonely. At the moment out of 18 clubs in the Premiership only 4 are managed by overseas Mangers. Of these Wenger is going slightly mad, Scolari is beginning to get found out due to Chelsea's poor home form, Benitez has been on borrowed time since Istanbul and the great Gianfranco Zola is a complete novice. I really hope he suceeds as a manager. I know that a great player doesn't always make a great manager but he was an intelligent top class footballer and a model professional who epitomised everything good about foreign imports and football in general.
At the same time I hope that Tony Adams also does well at Portsmouth. He's been very clever to bring in Jonny Metgod from Feyenoord as his assistant. Metgod of course I missed off the list of icons from my previous post on this thread. I'm sure most on here will remember his long range rockets for Nottingham Forest during the 1980's, a tradition that he carried on from Arie Haan. I don't think that he's in the same bracket as Paul Ince who I believe will never possess the skillset to get the best out of Premiership footballers. We'll see. Ironically Ince could be in the running for the vacancy at Elland Road after they were soundly beaten by his old team at the weekend. Bookies favourite is Aidy Boothroyd who's Watford side beat Leeds 3-0 in the play off final which Leeds have taken a long time to recover from. I wonder if Roy Keane is tempted with the Leeds job!!! ;D Now that would be funny, would it not?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 21:25:39 GMT
 I was surprised to read that there is now not many foreign managers in the premiership, what do you think the real reasons are? it seemed that more and more clubs were going down the foreign route before. As I do not really follow the top clubs, is it that they had not brought the success that was expected? the ones I do know of, all seemed to have been doing a good job,maybe they just cost to much, who knows, but I like to see good past English players getting the jobs.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 21:27:19 GMT
How can you get excited about football when you can't ever see the players close up? Chris, of all the things you said in another fascinating post, there's something about this statement that struck a particular chord. When I watch football, on an occasional basis, in a big stadium I enjoy the chessboard effect of being able to study a game (and I use that word deliberately as a neutral observer). But I wonder how I'd react to watching every game from that seat as a more partisan fan. For my £40 I'd rather expect to see the players faces or even the number on their shirts. I wonder if Roy Keane is tempted with the Leeds job!!! ;D Now that would be funny, would it not? What a delicious prospect. Leeds failing to make the play-offs on the final day of the season, having 57 points deducted next season for some misdemeanour, losing to Histon in the FA Trophy... Fun? That's something that comes with the mellowing process (all things Leeds United and Plymouth Argyle aside) that accompanies the fifth age (of seven) of the football fan which I reckon I've now entered. It may also be case that the definition of fun changes with age. And, as for anything you read in When Saturday Comes, well........ |
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Post by chrish on Dec 22, 2008 22:42:24 GMT
I was surprised to read that there is now not many foreign managers in the premiership, what do you think the real reasons are? it seemed that more and more clubs were going down the foreign route before. As I do not really follow the top clubs, is it that they had not brought the success that was expected? the ones I do know of, all seemed to have been doing a good job,maybe they just cost to much, who knows, but I like to see good past English players getting the jobs. Some foreign coaches have come here with huge reputations. People like Arsene Wenger who lets not forget was a brave choice at the time has been able to quietly build a Dynasty ay Arsenal and at the same time (as Merse pointed out the other day) completely rebuild the club in terms of mentality and how youth players are brought on. The thing now is that although Mr Wenger's policy of bringing on homegrown players is hugely admirable you do wonder if he's completely deluded about his own ability to produce a side that win silverware. Two things have probably caused this. Patrick Viera leaving and Man Utd kicking Reyes off the park a few years back. Since then Arsenal just haven't been up for the battle in the really tough matches. As for English clubs dabbling with foreign coaches. Tottenham seem to have cast their net further afield than most. They've tried Christian Gross, Jacques Santini, Martin Jol and of course most recently Juande Ramos. They all had sky high reputations in their own countries before joining Spurs, with possibly the exception of Martin Jol who could be described as very promising. Out of the 4 managers Jol probably did the best job and you could argue that was a bit unlucky in getting sacked. Of the others. Gianluca Vialli had some cup success at Chelsea, Alain Perrin was utterly hopeless at Portsmouth after huge success in France with Troyes. Mr Perrin was once a junior coach under Wenger when he was with him at AS Nancy. After Portsmouth he had success with Sochaux, winning the French cup. He then took over the reins at Lyon after Gerard Houllier (A failure at Liverpool?) was sacked, winning the domestic double with them. Now he's manager of a resurgent St Etienne side after leaving Lyon because he didn't get on with his backroom staff. Ruud Guillit promised "Sexy football" but delivered very little at Newcastle. Indeed he it was rumoured that his office was minus a door after he told Duncan Ferguson he wouldn't be in the team to play in the ill-fated 1-2 home defeat against Sunderland that eventually cost him his job. Who was upfront for Newcastle that night? A certain P.D Robinson who progressed to miss penalties for us at Barnet. As for the lower leagues. Then there's only Paulo Sousa at QPR, Roberto Martinez at Swansea City and Roberto di Matteo who replaced Paul Ince at Milton Keynes Dons. |
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Post by chrish on Dec 24, 2008 8:57:06 GMT
From this mornings BBC website. This encapsulates everything we've been talking about!
"Real Madrid wanted to sign Jermaine Pennant from Liverpool but his wages demands were too high and he may now end up joining Wigan".
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Dec 24, 2008 12:44:57 GMT
""We bought him as a goal machine, but he appeared to be a washing machine"."
Absolute classic quote, Barton Downs!! It could well be applied to many of our strikers since I've been a fan!!
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