merse
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Post by merse on Sept 22, 2010 22:53:17 GMT
Remembering Merse isn't a great stats man, may I be the first to calculate it's getting on for 700 in his case. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration I admit....  You wouldn't be far wrong, but be careful you'll be accused of "re-writing history"  I did miss a good few of those muppets who played during the Webb era and then just after though, as did a good few others I suspect. It's a frightening thought that I have seen hundreds and hundreds of them though and to be honest I had never previously given any thought to the fact. I have always just enjoyed football for the pure pleasure and spectacle of it, and my memories are of the characters and the dramas rather than the stats and there is so much pleasure to be had on here when things are mentioned that jog my memory into recalling days long gone and after a little bit of thought most of the visual detail comes flooding back to me. Even now I hold vivid memories of those interminable supporter's coach journies that we used to traverse the country by before the days of the motorway system as we know it today and so we would be all familiar with the Black Country and other Midland town centres that we used to drive through in the witching hours, of the city centres of Bristol and Gloucester, or as folk were trotting off t' mill further up North as daylight broke. The magical images of Stonehenge appearing through an early morning Salisbury Plain dawn, of London shaking itself into a Saturday morning routine as we trundled past Olympia; of the steep climb out of Oldham and down through Huddersfield having rattled accross the cobbles and past the still lingering war damage of Manchester and probably the most magical of all, a long early drive through a snow covered Lake District on the way to Workington. Memories like those beat stats into a cocked hat any day of the week for this old geezer, and I can hardly remember any of those games let alone the results anyway! |
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Post by aussie on Sept 23, 2010 5:56:49 GMT
Oh my god!
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Post by stefano on Sept 23, 2010 8:12:39 GMT
Remembering Merse isn't a great stats man, may I be the first to calculate it's getting on for 700 in his case. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration I admit.... First one i looked for was the great Steve Morrall as he was the very first player to make an impression on me.......he was so lightening quick. Yes I marked him once but didn't see very much of him!! (although I blame always being played at left back when I was naturally right footed .... but I won't get Merse going on that one again!! ) Although I haven't been as precise as Jon when looking through the Player Stats I was amazed that just under 700 players have played for the first team since I watched my first game in 1963. It's interesting that from the 1920's to 1950's players seemed to spend longer generally at the club (although we did have the War years with some players starting and finishing either side of it). I am sure that I have not seen all of those nearly 700 and must admit that there are a few names I just do not recognise, although that may be just fading memory. Like many I have had periods working away and although I have managed to see games in every season since I started supporting also like many I had periods of disillusionment where I didn't see many games and my preferred Saturday entertainment was rugby or local football. There were those dark depressing days when we were the whipping boys of the bottom division and a player could turn out for Watts Blake& Bearne one week and be in the United first team the next. Even when we finished ninth in the season that Rioch was replaced as manager by Webb we fielded almost 40 players in the league. Looking back over the Player Stats just made me think of the number of times I was convinced our club was going to go out of existence altogether, which may in some ways explain my normal optimism now as I think we have a really good set up at present and something to be proud of. Long may it continue ....  |
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Sept 23, 2010 9:26:47 GMT
[ Although I haven't been as precise as Jon when looking through the Player Stats I was amazed that just under 700 players have played for the first team since I watched my first game in 1963. It's interesting that from the 1920's to 1950's players seemed to spend longer generally at the club (although we did have the War years with some players starting and finishing either side of it). As this graph (using Jon's data) shows, there was a very large spike in new players in the early 80's and since then it seems to have alternated from consolidation to complete rebuild as almost every other year we bring in a load of new players, peaking in 2006 with 31. Since 1980 we have only failed to debut at least 9 players in a season once - five in 2003/4.  |
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 23, 2010 9:54:56 GMT
Would I be correct in assuming that where your graph peaks the league position of the team troughs? 
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 10:44:06 GMT
You beat me to it with your graph, Rags!
It certainly tells a fascinating story and Merse is correct in flagging “difficult” peak seasons such as 1995/96 (May) and 2006/07 (Roberts). Not only were those poor campaigns but they were also times of utter crisis.
Other “highs” on the graph include 2004/05 (Leroy’s relegation season) and, as something of an exception to the rule, Roy McFarland’s reconstruction/transition job in 2001/02. That sizeable group of debutants is worth highlighting and leaves scope for debate:
795 Ryan Ashford 2001 to 2002
796 Nicky Banger 2001 to 2002
797 Gary Brabin 2001 to 2002
798 David Brown 2001 to 2002
799 Lee Canoville 2001 to 2005
800 Kevin Dearden 2001 to 2005
801 Jason Fowler 2001 to 2005
802 Anton Greyling 2001 to 2002
803 Sean Hankin 2001 to 2004
804 Christian Hanson 2001 to 2002
805 Reuben Hazell 2001 to 2004
806 Richard Logan 2001 to 2002
807 Charlie MacDonald 2001 to 2002
808 Andy Martin 2001 to 2002
809 Martin McNeil 2001 to 2002
810 Mark Nicholls 2001 to 2002
811 David Preece 2001 to 2002
812 Marcus Richardson 2001 to 2003
813 Neville Roach 2001 to 2002
814 Alex Russell 2001 to 2005
815 Mike Williamson 2001 to 2004
816 Steve Woods 2001 to 2009
817 David Woozley 2001 to 2004
In terms of debutants, 1983/84 was the mould-breaker when – after years of introducing relatively few new players each season – we gave debuts to twenty-five players. This was almost as many as in the inaugural 1927/28 season and far more than the first season after the war. This can be largely explained by the changes wrought by Dave Webb after his appointment in February 1984 when he introduced eight new players late in the season: Dawkins, Compton, Squire, Currie, Allen, Wakefield, Derek Fowler and Hall. That season wasn’t a disaster – we finished ninth – but it was a prelude to what happened next (with another coach load of new players in 1984/85).
It would, of course, be illuminating to compare this data to other clubs. I suspect the majority would show an increasing trend from the 1980s with the introduction of more substitutes - and, in the case of the lower divisions, an extra competition - allied to changes in players' freedom of contract and the expanded loan market. Equally, I would imagine our relatively small turnover of players in the 1950s (in particular) and 1960s is mirrored elsewhere. Indeed, this might explain some of the nostalgia for that period with older supporters not only clearly recalling their own players but also those of the opposition. It was a case, far more than now, of seeing the same players year after year.
You could also produce graphs for the total number of players used each season. This too would show a sharp increase in recent times at nearly all professional clubs and, again, is a sign of the times. Gone are the days when clubs would win league titles by fielding rather fewer than twenty players in the entire season, something I was reminded of when reading The Unforgiven: The Story of Don Revie's Leeds United. Strangely, to my mind anyway, the authors argue Leeds may have achieved more if they’d had a larger squad, citing the fact they only used (something like) seventeen or eighteen players in some seasons. Ah, but wasn’t a smaller number seen as a sign of strength in those days and wasn’t there an incredible furore when Revie sent his reserve team to Derby that time?
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Sept 23, 2010 11:48:22 GMT
Would I be correct in assuming that where your graph peaks the league position of the team troughs? Very good question. So I tracked the final table positions for each and as you can see, there is a strong correlation from the 1980's onwards. The blue line is the number of players to join in a particular season, the green line is the final table position. Obviously, any peak in the blue line is a high number of new players, any peak in the green line is a lowly league position.  Highlighting the period from 1980 to now, the similarity between the high number of debutants in a season and the lowly position tend to give a clear lesson on the benefits of keeping a settled side.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 11:55:54 GMT
Only five debutants in the 2003/04 promotion season:
835 Narada Bernard 2003 to 2004
836 Joe Broad 2003 to 2004
837 Brian McGlinchey 2003 to 2006
838 Daryl McMahon 2003 to 2004
839 Liam Rosenior 2003 to 2004
Otherwise, a further exception to the general rule is the major job that was required for our first season in the Conference (twenty-two debutants). A proper A to Z:
914 Steve Adams 2007 to 2009
915 Mikkel Andersen 2007 to 2008
916 Jody Banim 2007 to 2008
917 Elliot Benyon 2007 to 2011
918 Roscoe Dsane 2007 to 2009
919 Mark Ellis 2007 to 2011
920 Chris Hargreaves 2007 to 2010
921 Paul Hinshelwood 2007 to 2008
922 Scott Laird 2007 to 2008
923 Kaid Mohamed 2007 to 2008
924 Darren Mullings 2007 to 2008
925 Kevin Nicholson 2007 to 2011
926 Lee Phillips 2007 to 2008
927 Michael Poke 2007 to 2010
928 Martin Rice 2007 to 2008
929 Tim Sills 2007 to 2010
930 Danny Stevens 2007 to 2011
931 Leslie Thompson 2007 to 2008
932 Chris Todd 2007 to 2010
933 Ishmael Welsh 2007 to 2008
934 Danny Wring 2007 to 2008
935 Chris Zebroski 2007 to 2011
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 23, 2010 13:26:57 GMT
Highlighting the period from 1980 to now, the similarity between the high number of debutants in a season and the lowly position tend to give a clear lesson on the benefits of keeping a settled side. Thanks Rags, you did tell me the other week you enjoy "number crunching"!This absolutley backs up my view of football, and also of the necessity of (a) selecting the correct manager and (b) providing him with the necessary infrastructure, if not budget ~ for that can change subject to the economic climate of the times ~ and then allowing him the time and "space" to do the job his way; which is now a dramatically differently climate within the club under the current ownership than it ever had been since the departure of Tony Boyce as chairman all those years ago. If you compare the records of all the clubs who punch above their weight, I think you will find a direct similarity of continuity and recognition from the boardroom that genuine football quality only comes from consistency of development and patience allied to common sense in allowing your chosen manager to get on with the job. I'm talking about clubs like Ipswich Town in the past and Crewe Alexandra, Scunthorpe United and Dagenham & Redbridge in this present day and age. With Paul Buckle now in his fourth season in the managerial chair at Plainmoor, added to the FACT that he is the first and only appointment of the current board; and I think everyone would agree that my theory is the correct one. Continuity of manager=continuity of players!Thankyou to yourself, Barty and Jon for your dilligence and factual research into something I have always held close to my theories on the game of football. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 23, 2010 13:41:19 GMT
First one i looked for was the great Steve Morrall as he was the very first player to make an impression on me.......he was so lightening quick. Having played against and with "Ollie" and later watched him with so much frustration I would go so far as to say that had his hunger matched his talent he would have played at the very highest level.
Steve Morrall was a natural athlete and footballer (a very good long jumper) blessed with great touch, pace and balance but also very intellectual who was the first to put his hand up and volunteer for a re-assessment of his contract to part time status in the days of financial struggle under Malcolm Musgrove. A quiet and studious guy, he worked for the Inland Revenue as a quantity surveyor I believe and of course was a former pupil of Torquay Boys Grammar School.....................hardly yer average "Raggy Arsed Urchin" as so many pro' footballers have been! ;D |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 14:06:59 GMT
It’s a pleasure to add to this thread and, now Jon has provided the basics, there’s a graph from me as well. This one shows the cumulative number of players who had played competitive first team football by the end of each season (eg 26 by the end of 1927/28; 177 by 1938/39; 961 by 2009/2010). I read it as showing at least three distinct periods. Firstly, pre-war when the club got through a lot of players initially establishing league football in the town and then attempting to maintain it. All, of course, played against the backcloth of turbulent economic times. It appears we would have seen our 1000th first teamer several years ago if the trends of those times had continued (and if there had been no second world war). Secondly, relatively more stable times from the mid 1940s to the 1980s. Nonetheless Rags’ charts are probably more illustrative for this period because – fluctuations notwithstanding – they still indicate a general trend towards an increase in players used as football business practices and the contracts and lifestyles of footballers changed. Also, this period would have seen steadily more loan signings. Put a ruler on that line and there's an argument that we've seen at least an additional hundred players (maybe plenty more) appear for the club who wouldn't have done so had the conditions of forty and fifty years ago pertained. Thirdly, a sharp upturn from the early 1980s. Changes, as previously expressed, within the wider game (more games, more subs, significantly more loans, more short-term deals, the general economic well-being of the game) but also a consequence of a Plainmoor cycle which was seemingly forever volatile:  |
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Sept 23, 2010 15:14:00 GMT
Thirdly, a sharp upturn from the early 1980s. Changes, as previously expressed, within the wider game (more games, more subs, significantly more loans, more short-term deals, the general economic well-being of the game) but also a consequence of a Plainmoor cycle which was seemingly forever volatile The mid-80's was a strange time at our club for many reasons. For the five-season period from 1982/83 to 1986/87 we introduced 99 new players. That is really where the upturn starts. Barton correctly point out that the changes in the game increased the number of players required to staff a football league club and the following chart attempts to break down the number into 10 year segments, with a side-step around the war. As Barton also shows, there was a large number of players used as the club tried to stand on its feet when it first entered the League. The clubs introduced almost as many players in their first four years in the League as they did in the six years immediately before the War. From 1950 to 2009 the increase is relatively linear. But the 1980's is an obvious exception and I believe that lump in the middle of the 80's is the cause of it. Now all we need is for someone to identify a club or two who are similar to us in size and achievement, and plot the number of players used by them for us to use as a comparison. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 16:36:28 GMT
The widespread establishment of youth programmes in the 1980s might also have had an effect of the number of players appearing in the Football League. A rough count suggests between sixty and seventy of our youth players made at least one first-team appearance between the mid 1980s and the eventual scapping of the set-up.
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Post by powles1 on Sept 23, 2010 18:06:17 GMT
Whilst Jon is correct in his listing of all the players who have played for Torquay United in the competitions specified it should be pointed out that the club did not sign 26 new players for the inaugural 1927/28 League season although that is the number of players who appeared for the Club during that season. Four of them, however, were with the club during the previous season namely Archie Bayes, David Daniel, Percy Mackrill and Jack Pattison and so only 22 were new signings during 1927/28.
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Post by Budleigh on Sept 23, 2010 18:27:25 GMT
It's like bloody Bletchley Park on here, but without the war-time glamour girls!
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