merse
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Post by merse on Sept 6, 2008 8:42:23 GMT
That's it exactly. Buckle felt pressured by criticism of our style into trying to play in a way that goes against his natural instincts. Not really surprising that he struggled, those same critics then leapt on his back at our poor early form and, again, he is pressured into reverting to what he knows best to try and keep his job! If people wanted a more expansive style of football they should have been more patient, such a dramatic change can't be achieved overnight! Unfortunately, there is no chance of such a change now as Buckle (quite understandably) won't be willing to take the risk of experimenting and losing his job.  I would agree with that...................the loudest dissidents over last season's style were the noisiest and quickest critics when the manager tried to improve the quality of ball coming out of defence by utilising players who's strength is passing(Hargreaves and Brough) over more basic defenders like Woods and Ellis. He did try, and if the critics had been less vociferous, the attendances had stood up (as they do at Oxford and Exeter when they falter) and the atmosphere less poisonous; then he might well have carried on the effort. Now I guess the know alls will claim he should have instructed Woods and Ellis to pass the ball like Brough and Hargreaves................yeah right, let's see DaveR coach the dobbin that pulled his milk cart to win the Derby first then! ;D |
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Post by crispygull on Sept 6, 2008 9:12:09 GMT
I dont think its really a case of that Merse.
Quite simply, neither Hargreaves or Brough were up to the job. Its a fact that FGR fans rate Michael Brough very highly when played in the centre of midfield, but they dont rate him especially as a Centre Half - they said that when we signed him.
As for Hargreaves, it was a brave move by Buckle that quite simply didnt pay off. He cost us goals by giving away free kicks (Woking) and getting caught out by pace (Ebbsfleet).
The reality is that if he wanted to change the style of play, with better quality coming out of the defence then he should have signed players that he knew could do that job for him, rather than ones that might be able to do it - at the expense of one or two fo the midfielders that we have in abundance at the club currently I would suggest.
It is not the fans fault that he has abandoned the passing game so quickly. It is quite simply a manager, under pressure for results, reverting to type and picking players in positions where he knows what they can do, and getting them to play in a style that he is comfortable with, and has had some success with in the past. Unfortunately it also demonstrates a lack of trust in some of the (expensive) signings that he has made in the summer to do a job for him viz, Wroe, Brough, Green, Adams etc - who have quickly fallen out of favour, to be "replaced" in the team by established players (Mansell, Hargreaves, Woods) who lets face it, these players were ultimately brought in to replace.
I dont envy Paul Buckle his job, as the difficulty he has is not only deciding what his best starting XI is but how to get the best out of them by dictating the style that he wants them to play - but he would have to be a pretty weak individual, which he most certainly is not, if he abandoned his principles after 3 or 4 games, just because a few fans were getting on his case!
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 6, 2008 10:33:24 GMT
The reality is that if he wanted to change the style of play, with better quality coming out of the defence then he should have signed players that he knew could do that job for him, rather than ones that might be able to do it Well if that is your opinion, do you know of such players who would fall within OUR remit such as being willing or able to play in the BSP, willing or able to re-locate to South Devon , fall within our price band AND be of such quality that they would be up to achieving results that would send us straight to the top of the table? I could recommend a whole host of young and accomplished players who are easy on the ball, distribute it intelligently AND play at levels not far below the BSP. But the million dollar question is would YOU and your fellow Popside and Grandstand Groaners allow them and the club a couple of development seasons in which to attain the performance levels necessary to attain that challenging league position without cat calling them, wrecking their confidence and turning your backs on the club in such numbers that you then placed the club in dire financial straights? I think you and I know that the answer to those questions is a resounding "NO!" and in a nutshell that is why professional football is more or less ruled by short term thinking. We are not Arsenal or many other such clubs at their level where 60,000 people turn up diligently week in week out to watch what is little more than a development side these days playing football "the way it was meant to be played" but winning nothing for three years.....................if the Gooners decided they didn't want to watch that there are16,000 folk waiting in the season ticket availability line and THAT in reality is what gives Arsene Wenger licence to operate the way he chooses. Criticising a manager is easy, being a manager is certainly not. I'll give you another example....................people on here are saying that Paul Buckle should be enlisting the assistance of Colin Lee in putting things right. They post in all sincerity but do they realise the general antipathy the playing squad hold towards Lee? Do they know just why that is? If they were party to that knowledge they surely wouldn't be posting such simple solutions. |
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Post by crispygull on Sept 6, 2008 11:18:01 GMT
The reality is that if he wanted to change the style of play, with better quality coming out of the defence then he should have signed players that he knew could do that job for him, rather than ones that might be able to do it Well if that is your opinion, do you know of such players who would fall within OUR remit such as being willing or able to play in the BSP, willing or able to re-locate to South Devon , fall within our price band AND be of such quality that they would be up to achieving results that would send us straight to the top of the table? I could recommend a whole host of young and accomplished players who are easy on the ball, distribute it intelligently AND play at levels not far below the BSP. But the million dollar question is would YOU and your fellow Popside and Grandstand Groaners allow them and the club a couple of development seasons in which to attain the performance levels necessary to attain that challenging league position without cat calling them, wrecking their confidence and turning your backs on the club in such numbers that you then placed the club in dire financial straights? I think you and I know that the answer to those questions is a resounding "NO!" and in a nutshell that is why professional football is more or less ruled by short term thinking. We are not Arsenal or many other such clubs at their level where 60,000 people turn up diligently week in week out to watch what is little more than a development side these days playing football "the way it was meant to be played" but winning nothing for three years.....................if the Gooners decided they didn't want to watch that there are16,000 folk waiting in the season ticket availability line and THAT in reality is what gives Arsene Wenger licence to operate the way he chooses. Criticising a manager is easy, being a manager is certainly not. I'll give you another example....................people on here are saying that Paul Buckle should be enlisting the assistance of Colin Lee in putting things right. They post in all sincerity but do they realise the general antipathy the playing squad hold towards Lee? Do they know just why that is? If they were party to that knowledge they surely wouldn't be posting such simple solutions. The reality is Merse is that we have been able to recruit a number of players this season, in other positions (mostly midfield) who were probably the envy of many a Manager at this level - because, as you and I know, the budget given to Paul Buckle this season is a very generous one. The fact that he has chosen to spend most of that money on central midfielders is his decision and one which he will live or die by in terms of his tenure at the club. Personally I'm not that fussed about players who can play their way out of the back four, not at this level anyway - leave the clever stuff to the midfield and strikers as far as I am concerned. However, I would have liked Buckle to have signed a "proper" Right Back, one who has the ability to go past his winger and get a cross in, whilst at the same time being able to defend. Similarly, like Buckle himself, I would have liked to have seen us sign a decent left sided central defender - Johnson would I'm sure have been OK but it wasnt to be. You are right though when you say that professional football is driven by short term thinking, but has it ever been any different? Football is a results based business and any Manager knows that his longevity in the job is based purely on winning games. Like any other football club, if the team isnt winning on a regular basis, the crowds will start to drift away. Its no different at Plainmoor unfortunately. I feel sorry for Paul Buckle in that in all honesty he over achieved last season with a third place finish and a Wembley final, but whilst last season was meant to be one of consolidation, or at least a top ten finish as far as the board was concerned - I believe that they are, or were, expecting better things in our second season. They (the board) have shown that by backing him to the hilt in the summer. In essence we have released all of the "cheaper" players on our books and brought in more expensive replacements, and I dont doubt that our playing budget is considerably higher than it was last season. The point I am trying to make is that all of this means that our expectation levels are much higher. We are one of the "bigger" teams in this League, have one of the biggest followings, we are able to pay by all accounts very decent wages and we had a very good base to our squad from last season. Is it any wonder then that we were installed as one of the pre season favourites? Unfortunately all of this adds to the pressure on the Manager - in seasons gone by, in fact for nearly all the time I have been supporting the Gulls (nearly 40 years) we have never really been in this sort of situation before - perhaps the late sixties was the nearest thing to it - in terms of expectation levels. Unfortunately for Paul Buckle, 4 defeats (and we have been pretty unlucky in a few of them) in our first 7 games is not what was expected and now he finds himself under even more pressure to get results, and with the calls for him to be replaced increasing by the day from the supporters - no different to any other club there though. As for the players apparent dislike of Colin Lee - well that is a huge generalisation to make - and quite frankly it wouldnt bother me if they dont like him or not anyway. Football is a fickle game and so are its supporters and players, and the players would soon come round if his involvement started to produce the right results. They are after all paid handsomely to play a game and do a job, they do not need to like their boss (and neither does Paul Buckle come to that). Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Colin Lee is the best qualified football manager at the club - and personally I think his knowledge of the game is being underused at the moment. As for being a popside/grandstand moaner I am most certainly not one of those I can assure you. I would like nothing more than for Paul Buckle to turn things around, but lets not believe that he hasnt made mistakes in his team selections and transfer policy. To be honest I would be surprised if the man himself wouldnt admit privately to that being the case, but going public on that issue probably wouldnt do him any favours. Like you, I despise some of the barracking that we have witnessed from the terraces from a few individuals in recent weeks, but as one of the 1500 or so that was in attendance at the York game the other night I can assure you that, despite what it may have sounded like on tv (the popside is barely heard at the best of times through its poor acoustics) the vocal support from the pop for the team was the best I have heard in ages! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2008 11:57:13 GMT
Merse I can't help being a perfectionist, to be honest, I'm glad that I am, I will only ever seek to get what I ever I do, up to the very best standard that I can.I know there are people in my life who do moan about me, Its the people, who can't be asked to put the effort I put into everything I do,so find it easier to pick fault.
I say that only because you want to keep on about my words, that there is a proper way in my view, that football should be played.I do not believe players in the BSP can't control a ball, can't find a good pass and play to a formation or tactic, that can not only produce results, but is pleasing and entertaining to watch.
You have listed teams that have had success playing what I call proper football, you have listed also teams that have played this way and did not get any success. You also did the same for teams who in my view play hoofball football.
There are reasons both types of football may have gained some success at times, It could be down to the players in the squad for simply the others teams being much weaker teams, at the time the said team was enjoying success on the pitch.
You can not compare the likes of any top Premiership teams, but I would say that even those who will never be able to compete, with teams like Man U, do still try to play good football.
Yes teams like Arsenal may well have 1600 fans( if thats what teams like that have) waiting to get a season ticket, but we are not them we are TUFC, a seaside football team.Who has two other clubs well within driving distance, should any person wanting to watch live football could go too.
I have talked about Roy from Maldon on the forum, a dear life long fan now passed away, Is son Dave would be at the games with him. I bumped into Dave a few months ago and was shocked to learn he no longer goes to Plainmoor, he much prefers now to watch Championship football down at home park.
I said to him that his dad would be turning in his grave, but like he said, the football is so much better than, what he called the rubbish he had been watching, now TUFC was in the BSP.He is just one man I know, but TUFC was his life long club and he got to the point, where he felt, he was not enjoying going anymore to Plainmoor and wanted to start enjoying football again, that he was after all having to pay to watch.
I started this thread talking about a BSP game I had just watched on TV, very entertaining and a crowd pleasing display of how football can and should be played, yes even at the BSP level.At the end of the day, fans enjoying going to watch their team, being entertained is now even more important than it ever was.
The club can no longer just expect fans to turn up, there will always be some,who would never miss a game, I was one of those once, but times and people change.People now look at the cost of things, they have too, they go to watch a match and If they get dished up very poor football will question, If they enjoyed their time at the game, a game that with FOOD etc could have cost them £25 if they were local, or even £100 if they had to travel some distance to get to the ground.
Those walking a way from the ground after a match, may well be telling themselves, it was the last game they were going too, those that stick to it, will listen to the next match on the radio. If the result and performance was poor, they will pat themselves on the back, for making a good decision while checking the cash still in their pocket.
So my point about playing football the proper ways is, that by dishing up, week in and week out, poor football, will cost any club valuable fans, that once lost will be hard to get back, like any habit, once broken, because for some going to a match, may only have been because it had became a habit.
Put in 100%, play entertaining football and you will get people prepared to pay their hard earned cash to watch it.Failure to do so will result in low gates, that will only have a downward spieling effect on the whole club.
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 6, 2008 12:32:41 GMT
Playing "football the way it was meant to be played" hasn't done much for Burton's crowds has it? I bet if they actually achieved something they would find a lot more believers in a town where the demography is a lot more sympathetic to running professional football than a seaside town. At the end of the day it is the league position, the result of the last game and the weather that determines whether half hearted "non fans" go along to Plainmoor or go sadly along to hang their hats on Plymouth Argyle's coat peg. Your friend at least recognises that you WILL NOT necessarily get the quality of football at a lower level that you are supposed to get at a higher level. I don't recall seeing the style of football from Doncaster Rovers when I watched them in the Conference that I now see from them on TV in the higher reaches of the Football League. I suggest if you stop being a pernickety perfectionist you might get a bit more enjoyment out of your BSP football, or maybe you could catch the "Turncoat Special" down to Groan Park and watch the scintillating and exciting stuff that Worzell Gummidge serves up that attracts absolutely"huge" gates that will not even sustain a Championship future for Argyle. This season I've watched teams varying in stature from Real Madrid to Dorchester......................I'm not silly enough to pay a tenner to watch the latter and expect the quality of the former and for you to keep belly aching about "value for money" at Plainmoor is a joke. You're only coughing up fifteen quid man, I bet you go moaning at Trago Mills telling them what you can get at Harrods!
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Post by bitemebryn on Sept 6, 2008 12:51:40 GMT
Absolutely spot on Dave. As you say, not enjoying the football is exactly the boat I find myself in. And if I don't go, nor does my son, and my old man will probably not want to be on his Jack Jones so there are 3 paying supporters gone. Purely because the football is dire.
Due to working overseas I didn't see any of last season until new year. I was happy to go along week in week out as everybody was still raving about the start to the season we'd had and how great all things yellow were. It's now nine months on and I am still waiting to see what all the hype was about.
I given PB's position some thought over the last few days and I'm willing to give anyone a chance to turn things around, however I'm now starting to think that this is actually, from what I've witnessed with my own eyes and not taking into account last seasons start, it. We are not any good. Sod 2007, 2008 has been dire and maybe 9 months is long enough to sort things out. Maybe, just maybe, PB and his style of football are not going to acheive anything for this football club.
I honestly hope I get proved wrong tomorrow, and the week after, and the week after that. I get the feeling thats not going to happen though.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2008 12:54:08 GMT
Sadly once again you miss the point Merse, no one is talking out spending £15, still I would say that if when non football people ask how much it is to watch TUFC these days, they are always shocked at the price.
I only ever buy the best anyway, as long as I don't feel ripped off, not some sort of cheep scape like you try to make me out to be.but thats another story. The real point is that If fans come away from the match feeling, its was just rubbish, lacked any effort, that said fan would have had to put in to even get there, then they will question why they went.
Happy to stay the way I am Merse, with standards set high, If only the rest of the world could do the same, we would not have half the problems we have now.
So just to make sure you get it into your thick skull. I am not belly aching about "value for money" more that I want to be entertained for the money I have left over, to use for my pastimes. Not leave a ground feeling I just want to go to Berry Head.
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Post by atheringtongull on Sept 6, 2008 12:57:16 GMT
As I am new to this forum I would like to ask "Who is this person Merse" who seems to sit in an ivory tower in London and spends most of his time criticising us fans who aren't happy with the way things are going? Yes, I booed them off after the Ebbsfleet game and they didn't deserve anything else. It was a pathetic performance. And I clapped them off after the Salisbury game as they showed some spirit and played quite well. I've been a supporter for over 60 years and seen many ups and downs in that time, and quite honestly this is one of the worst downs I've seen in that time, and, yes, I blame the manager for most of it. Everyone talking about the poor performances so far this season, but what we must not forget is that we have been playing like that for most of the time SINCE THE END OF LAST YEAR. It's not nothing new. Yes, this Sunday may well be my last at Plainmoor for some time: and yes Merse, whoever you are, I do regard myself as a true supporter and have been for 60 years. Dave R talks about the cost and although it doesn't cost me £100, I drive 60 miles each way which takes about 3 hours altogether and spend about £30 just on fuel. I am a pensioner on a fairly limited income and I am not prepared to spend that much to watch the poor performances that we've seen so far this season. This Sunday is a big crunch match because if we can't beat THEM then there is no hope.
As for me mainly blaming the manager, (shock, horror I hear This Merse person saying), I feel his team selection and tactics has nothing more than laughable. Playing Hargreaves at centre half was a joke, especially as we had 4 real defenders watching the game. Why did it take so many games to realise this was a mistake? As for the midfield; we have signed all these midfield players and not given them a chance. Carlisle has been a disappointment as he only performs in spurts. Sills and Dsane just don't gel at all with Sills flicking on to empty spaces most of the time and although Dsane chases after thru' balls, he just ambles back again afterwards. Give the youngsters a chance together. The last 10 minutes on Thurs showed what they can do. Play Green and Benyon together with Carayol on the left and Stevens on the right where he should be, and try Brough and Adams together in midfield. It can't be any worse than what we've got.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2008 13:02:49 GMT
Great post atheringtongull, as to your question who is Merse, many would also like to know that answer, there are times I'm sure, he does not know himself. Looking forward to Merse telling us who he really is  |
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petef
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Post by petef on Sept 6, 2008 13:24:27 GMT
What's that Merse in an Ivory Tower - I thought he lived with Queen Liz now at the Palace and was looking forwards to his knighthood.....
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 6, 2008 14:10:47 GMT
As I am new to this forum I would like to ask "Who is this person Merse" who seems to sit in an ivory tower in London and spends most of his time criticising us fans who aren't happy with the way things are going? I am a person who if I see a difficult situation (and I've seen many in my life) opts to analyse what CAN be done rather than what CAN'T be done. I am a person who opted to move away from the negative, half empty attitude and hyper critical attitudes in South Devon. I am a person who chooses to always look forward for potential and positives rather than bellyache about what has gone wrong and the only time you will find me choosing to acknowledge past failure is when I see people hankering after a return to a policy that has ultimately resulted in failure before. I don't make unrealistic demands of people to produce beyond their capabilities and am prepared to accept that if I am not satisfied with what I am paying for then I need to question just what I expect to get for my investment anyway. In simplistic terms, if you're happy to win a tenner for your tenner; back an even priced favourite. If you want a ton for your outlay, and put yer money on a 10/1 outsider; but if you're a really big boy be brave enough to put a ton at evens and back your judgement. Nothing will be achieved through moaning and groaning, barracking and booing. Yes, you have the right to do that but you are only making the situation worse. If you choose to stay away, fine - I've done the same, especially living where I do I'm not prepared to come all the way down to Plainmoor and come home grumpy about it. But I don't expect a p at on the back for it, nor would I encourage others to do the same and thus compound the club's problems. To a certain extent Plainmoor's often a better experience with a small loyal crowd than one bolstered by miserable feckers booing and the moaning and groaning of people with no more respect for someone with a different point of view then to refer to them as "the likes of......" or "this - person"Clubs that achieve and do well are clubs that encourage consistency and show commitment to management and staff that they have chosen to employ. Clubs that are allowed to do just that by a loyal and intelligent set of supporters will do much better than clubs who change managers every season or two, or bow to the "mob mentality" as Bateson did during his time in charge. We now have an intelligent and football sensitive board of directors running OUR club, I suggest we would all be better served by not putting them under undue pressure by constantly harassing their chosen young manager and thereby bringing a return to the shameful day when Don O' Riordon was effectively thrown to the mob by a shamefully disrespectful chairman. |
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 6, 2008 14:13:06 GMT
What's that Merse in an Ivory Tower - I thought he lived with Queen Liz now at the Palace and was looking forwards to his knighthood..... I think you'll find it was the person who thought that the Hanger Lane Gyratory was a stock car venue who believed that Pete! |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2008 14:51:23 GMT
I wondered how long It would take you Merse, to start insulting the good folk of Devon. Let me tell you I'm very proud to say I was born in Devon and I will tell you why.
I find most Devon people to be very honest, very friendly and prepared to help others when then can. I find I'm happy to trust most Devon people, I find them hard working and fair minded, maybe you moved because you could not fit in.
To make the following statement you made, must surly be some kind of joke?
I am a person who chooses to always look forward for potential and positives rather than bellyache about what has gone wrong
I have lost track of bellyaching posts I have read that you have made, posts about Leroy spring to mind and many others.
I think Merse Its a case Of what you selectively choose to remember, but like I have said before, you can keep London, with all your conman and dangerous places to even be able to walk at night.
What fool could ever compare the beauty and safety Of living in Devon, living around such gentle folk and state they moved there just to get away from Devon folk, of which you happen to be one.
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merse
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Post by merse on Sept 6, 2008 15:21:11 GMT
I wondered how long It would take you Merse, to start insulting the good folk of Devon. It's the negativity, pessimism, criticism and all the other "isms" that get on my tits. The cliff face fell down, we've got a balloon, we've got to pay to park, we've got a mayor (that WE elected); oh what a life. We don't want a gert great bill for building a decent road into the place....................oh bloody hell all the industry's fecked off - aren't WE unlucky. Don't want to go up to that "Lunnun" place- it's all full of beggars and thieves................you must shit yourselves every time you come out of Paddington Station blinking, and all those roads? blimey it really spoils the place; and where's the beach that disappears at high tide? Better stay where you are, enjoying the peace and quiet and the tranquility only disturbed by the loud sound of snoring from the proliferation of rest homes, issue all those old folk with one of those" umbrella hats" 'cos they're too slow to dodge the seagull shite; and try to rival the Monte Carlo Grand Prix with the "English Riviera Zimmer Frame Derby" - it should produce a local winner for local folk. Remember: a pessimist opts to be cremated when he dies whilst an optimist opts for burial just in case he can think of a way out of his predicament. I reckon that Jesus fella was one of the latter and Mary Magdalene would have been buggered if she'd had to stick all those ashes together in the right order! ;D |
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I would agree with that...................the loudest dissidents over last season's style were the noisiest and quickest critics when the manager tried to improve the quality of ball coming out of defence by utilising players who's strength is passing(Hargreaves and Brough) over more basic defenders like Woods and Ellis. He did try, and if the critics had been less vociferous, the attendances had stood up (as they do at Oxford and Exeter when they falter) and the atmosphere less poisonous; then he might well have carried on the effort.
