Rags
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Post by Rags on Jul 7, 2010 6:20:45 GMT
That to me is what the likes of Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez fail to appreciate or acknowledge when they come out with their myopic 'reserve teams should play in the Championship' nonsense, and that is why every right-minded fan, should dismiss such ideas out of hand. Their view certainly is myopic and I interpret it as meaning that they want a higher level of competition for their reserves/youth players so that they develop quickly enough to be able to be an effective part of their first team. Something about that makes me wonder if they would be as enthusiastic after two or three seasons if their "reserve" teams failed to set the Championship alight and lost more games than they won, god forbid even being relegated. No doubt at that point the teams would be withdrawn for administrative reasons... Somehow, foreign players don't seem to need as much development to go straight into the Prem as some of the younger British players. I've often wondered if this was a) because they are mentally tougher, b) because they cost more money to buy so they get more gams to find their feet, as it were, c) they are better coached as youth players and therefore more adept at succeeding under the pressure of being in the first team, d) their previous clubs played at a level closer to the Premier League than the Prem reserve teams do (which would support Wenger et al's wish to play in the Championship) e) something else I haven't thought of. Perhaps Wenger should lend some of his younger players out to Spanish/German/Italian clubs for a season to, er, season, rather like he did with Jack Wilshere at Bolton last season; only sending them abroad would develop their skills better than dropping them into a struggling/mid-table Prem side, even one under the impeccable ground-ball playing style of Owen Coyle.. The Premier League chose to leave the Football League to grab as much of the television/marketing money as they could for themselves (thanks again, Graham Kelly), now they want to steal our Football League places to let their younger players practice/develop. For every Prem club with a reserve team playing in the Football League, there's an Oxford, Stevenage, Burton, Torquay, Aldershot or Exeter, etc who won't be in the League and that, to me, is unacceptable. Unless they want to pay £100,000 per season to each of the other Football League clubs and sod the Conference clubs. Blimey, even writing about the Premier League has made me greedy...
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 7, 2010 8:19:12 GMT
Somehow, foreign players don't seem to need as much development to go straight into the Prem as some of the younger British players................ Perhaps Wenger should lend some of his younger players out to Spanish/German/Italian clubs for a season to, er, season, rather like he did with Jack Wilshere at Bolton last season............. Mexican Carlos Vela joined Arsenal at 18 from Guadalajara and was immediately loaned out to Spanish clubs Osasuna and Celta Vigo before he ever got any English football. Young Brazilian fullback Pedro Bothelho is also at Celta Vigo in the Spanish Segunda (2nd div) having previously been at Salamanca along with Norwegian Havard Nordtveit who is now completing a spell in Germany with Nurnberg, playing holding midfield in their Bundesliga side. It seems Arsenal have a policy of loaning out young English lads to English clubs and youngsters of other nationalities in their academy to continental clubs. Whether this is to "protect" from the very English ultra physical game until they have honed their technical ability in very high class continental football, or with an eye to selling them on to European clubs; I do not know. Man Utd on the other hand do tend to send young English lads out to their "associate" club in Antwerp, whilst Sheffield United have an interesting association with Ferencvaros in Hungary who in fact they now own and where they do the same.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 7, 2010 8:38:21 GMT
I think where English football falls down at international level is the FACT that almost all prospective and current England players are all insulated having only played their club football in this country with it's perculiar manner of playing the game. Look at all the small countries who have done well in the World Cup and you will see how most of their players play their football away from their home environment. Look at Brazil, look at Argentina. Germany, Spain and Italy bare comparison with England when it comes to the percentage of their players who play domestic football, but then their domestic football has more in common with enlightened World Cup levels than our domestic high pressure environment.. Valuable experience of living and training away from home comforts and the tactical awareness and flexibility gained thereof is one helluva strong weapon to have in one's armoury and the lack of it sticks out like a sore thumb in the England squad in my opinion.
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Jul 7, 2010 9:09:10 GMT
Somehow, foreign players don't seem to need as much development to go straight into the Prem as some of the younger British players................ Perhaps Wenger should lend some of his younger players out to Spanish/German/Italian clubs for a season to, er, season, rather like he did with Jack Wilshere at Bolton last season............. Mexican Carlos Vela joined Arsenal at 18 from Guadalajara and was immediately loaned out to Spanish clubs Osasuna and Celta Vigo before he ever got any English football. Young Brazilian fullback Pedro Bothelho is also at Celta Vigo in the Spanish Segunda (2nd div) having previously been at Salamanca along with Norwegian Havard Nordtveit who is now completing a spell in Germany with Nurnberg, playing holding midfield in their Bundesliga side. Good point, I'd forgotten about Vela although I don't think he's managed to show his undoubted talent when he plays for Arsenal first-team.
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Post by sundayref on Jul 7, 2010 17:07:08 GMT
The basic fact after all this debate is that the English team wasn't good enough. Yesterday Michel Platini went on record to state that the three countries in Europe that invest the most in developing youth have all reached the World Cup semi finals. In England we spent £750 million on Wembley stadium which would have been better spent on the Burton football centre. After losing to England in the Euro 2000 tournament the German FA went back to basics and invested a similar amount of money as we spent on Wembley developing youth players and built at least three football centres. They have over 20,000 registered youth coaches whereas we have about 1,000. The results of their work are there to see in the German team that demolished our 'golden generation'. Until the FA wake up and take action to change the way football is run, coached ,etc then we will always fall short of success. Two years ago we were promised a 'root and branch' review of football following our elimination from Euro 2008 - I have yet to hear anything further on this which I feel says it all.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 7, 2010 18:30:21 GMT
Two years ago we were promised a 'root and branch' review of football following our elimination from Euro 2008 - I have yet to hear anything further on this which I feel says it all. Well I think it's both ridiculous and unfair to make a statement like that..................plenty of comment has been made on here for a start on Brooking's input and discussed at length of TV and in the rest of the media. That two European sides will contest the finals and that three from this continent reached the last four added to the FACT that all three of those play a rather simplistic and pragmatic game as opposed to the frippery and over embellishment of Lionel Messi and his fellow media idol Cristiano Ronaldo (not the real one) prove that simple absolute control of the ball, perfect first touch, and the discipline to move the ball on swiftly and simply are the pre-requisites for World domination. I may be proved wrong by Spain tonight if one of their players produces a match clinching act of stupendous individuality, but I expect more of the same of their renowned "death by a thousand passes" approach and more of the German discipline in getting almost all of the team behind the ball as they build moves that will hit Spain hard and punishingly on the break like a dagger to the heart. Don't make Holland out to be anything like as pure as these two, clumsey and dirty: Van Bommell kicks the life out of any opponent he chooses and seems to get away with murder..................he's been like that for years now, either for Holland or Bayern Munich. Holland are effective, but not as highly skilled as the Spanish and the Germans will see to them as usual if they get to the final. Such football as Spain and Germany practice ~ the Dutch too comes from a culture of heavily imposed coaching of the basics into players from the age of 5 upwards ~ they very definitely haven't had flair or imagination coached out of them, but they very strictly restrict themselves into giving precedence to the team game plan. Investment in coaching is the way forward, and as that comparison of the numbers of coaches in Spain when compared with England shows, we are still light years behind.
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Post by chrish on Jul 7, 2010 18:54:10 GMT
Somehow, foreign players don't seem to need as much development to go straight into the Prem as some of the younger British players................ Perhaps Wenger should lend some of his younger players out to Spanish/German/Italian clubs for a season to, er, season, rather like he did with Jack Wilshere at Bolton last season............. Mexican Carlos Vela joined Arsenal at 18 from Guadalajara and was immediately loaned out to Spanish clubs Osasuna and Celta Vigo before he ever got any English football. Young Brazilian fullback Pedro Bothelho is also at Celta Vigo in the Spanish Segunda (2nd div) having previously been at Salamanca along with Norwegian Havard Nordtveit who is now completing a spell in Germany with Nurnberg, playing holding midfield in their Bundesliga side. It seems Arsenal have a policy of loaning out young English lads to English clubs and youngsters of other nationalities in their academy to continental clubs. Whether this is to "protect" from the very English ultra physical game until they have honed their technical ability in very high class continental football, or with an eye to selling them on to European clubs; I do not know. Man Utd on the other hand do tend to send young English lads out to their "associate" club in Antwerp, whilst Sheffield United have an interesting association with Ferencvaros in Hungary who in fact they now own and where they do the same. Just a bit further up the road in North London is a another young Mexican called Giovani Dos Santos who was signed by Spurs from Barcelona by Juande Ramos. He was first at Barcelona B, then Barcelona's first team before making the switch to Tottenham making 7 appearances before being loaned out first to Ipswich Town and then last season to Galatasary. While I was driving back from work today Radio 5 were doing an interview with Tony Woodcock who had 2 spells at 1 FC Koln and a couple seasons at Fortuna Koln. He was saying that he thought that the big difference between German and English clubs is a financial one. Whereas English clubs can go out and spend money quicker than a Russian Oligarch on players, German clubs are choosing to develop their own players. That's not to say that German clubs are poor and never spend money on huge transfer fees but even the richest club in Germany, Bayern Munich, who've spent big amounts on Frank Ribery, Arjan Robben and that cheating lazy carthorse Luca Toni have also developed Bastian Schweinsteiger, Thomas Mueller and the two full backs Philipp Lahm and Holger Badstuber. Philipp Lahm, now 26 has been at Bayern since he was 11 years old and played two seasons at Bayern Munich II (the reserve team squad) before being loaned to fellow talent developers VFB Stuttgart where he made 53 appearances in two seasons for the Swabian club who were then managed by Felix Magath. It's also worth noting that there are several real football men involved in the upper echelons of Bayern Munich. German companies' board of directors (called the Vorstand) usually employ people who've had first hand experience of the shop floor and have worked there way up the company structure. Ex player Karl Heinz Rummenigge is the CEO and Uli Hoeness is the president. Also as Audi and Adidas both own 9% of Bayern Munich AG, Hebert Hainer (CEO of Adidas) and Rupert Stadler (Chairman of Audi) are both on the Supervisory board of directors, called the Aufsichtsrat. Others include a prominent Journalist (Helmut Markwort), a prominent politician called Edmund Stoiber, who seems to be the loose cannon as he's known in Germany for being very Pro Vladimir Putin as well as being anti-Turkish, anti-Islam and anti-Asylum seeker. But then again most Bavarians are! The other VIP on the board of directors is Martin Winterkorn who's Chairman of Volkswagen AG (who also own VFL Wolfsburg 100%) which also means it's subsidaries Audi and Porsche. Bayern are also the 4th richest club in the world. In 2009 they generated 303 million euros in Revenue but only 2.5 million Euros were profit. Part of the reason for selling 9% to Audi for 90 million Euros was to ease the repayments on the Allianz Arena. Interestingly enough only one club in Germany is a PLC and listed on the German Stock Exchange and that is Borussia Dortmund. They had huge initial success and then they've been in decline ever since. They had to sell their Westfalenstadion which they now lease in a move which mirrors some of the shadier deals in our Football League (Cambridge, Wrexham etc). Borussia Dortmund excepted most German clubs seem to be very stable, efficiently organised and not prone to the free for all greed of the Premier League. Funnily enough the only big club I can think of in the Premier League who a) aren't cash rich and b) seem to have a realistic expection of what they can achieve are Everton. They've kept faith with David Moyes and they are producing young English players. Their success in developing Wayne Rooney and Jack Rodwell is in stark contrast how little local talent Liverpool are producing these days. But I guess after they fluked that "night in Istanbul" the expectation was that they could rule England once more. Oh dear. So that's it in a nutshell. Curb the greed and reward in the Premier League and make new legislation to ensure home grown talent. To be fair to Manchester United, as well as spending millions on foreign and domestic players they've always tried to produce their own home grown talent. Whether they'll ever create a batch as good as the one in the mid 1990s is debatable. But with the unbelievable Glazer debt repayments they would be foolhardly to cut back on Youth development.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 7, 2010 19:30:41 GMT
I was "earwigging" a discussion between some parents last night who were complaining that their son's in particular ~ new arrivals ~ had been taken to task, not for beating an opponent; but for habitually going back and beating him again for a second, third and even a ridiculous fourth time. There are still the misinformed who believe that such "skill" is being "coached out" of kids..................it is not a skill to do that, it is a circus trick, it is poor decision making and it is a hinderence to the pattern of play. You won't see that in the highest echelons of the game, any individual doing that is simply allowing the opposition to re-group and hold their shape ready for the next attack.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jul 7, 2010 22:26:08 GMT
Yesterday Michel Platini went on record to state that the three countries in Europe that invest the most in developing youth have all reached the World Cup semi finals................ They (Germany) have over 20,000 registered youth coaches whereas we have about 1,000. You're correct in your first statement but incorrect in the second one. There are in fact over 40,00 qualified coaches in England: 3,186 Level 3. 996 A licence. 167 Pro' License. Add to that the 26,273 Level 1 holders, the 6,957 Level 2, and you have those 40,000 qualified coaches in one capacity or another in this country. The big problem we have (and if you read the BBC Football website tonight, you will more readily appreciate the fact) is overcoming the myth that to coach youngsters is someway only a stepping stone to bigger things. The Academies and Centres of Excellence who employ top rate coaches to work with the very youngest are the ones who are turning out the extremely talented individuals. Ossie Ayabangie who is extensively quoted in that article is well known to me and I was in his company only on Monday night. What he has to say is very pertinent and not best served by people making sweeping statements based on either myth or out of date figures. I'm not for one moment suggesting that having over 25,000 minimally qualified coaches is the answer, but it is indicative of the number of people who are prepared to put themselves forward as part of the effort to find a solution to this country's serial failure and that is a positive and good thing.
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