rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Oct 20, 2018 9:16:43 GMT
Plainmoor Pete - TUST is an independent body which mean sometimes it will protest and sometimes it will agree with the club, a bit like a critical friend but ultimately is looking towards its long term viability. The supporters are the one constant and life blood of the club and I see TUST as a means of engagement beyond shouting from the terraces.
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Post by gullone on Oct 20, 2018 11:17:17 GMT
Everyone is aware that we have a split fan base like no other So i shall happily take my place tomorrow amongst the supposedly apathetic hordes who have the audacity not to join the TUST.....COYY Each to their I’m astonished to read a TUOSC member or any fan for that matter regarding us as having ‘a split fan base like no other’?? Like no other? Seems strong. Ironically, something I would disagree with.  Well we both know that the fans are certainly not in 100% in agreement on the way forward so what would your percentage be based on our average attendance ? I would give it as certainly no more than 60% - 40% either way...if that aint split i dont know what is Rob. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 20, 2018 11:52:17 GMT
Also I disagree with the statement "We have a split can base like no other..." ; yes the fan base is split, but that isn't unique or unusual. The fan base is a collection of individuals whose common denominator is supporting TUFC but beyond that there is no reason to expect any coming together of minds on any particular subject. That is the same at all clubs. Gullone - Pete’s answer to your observation ‘we have a split fan base like no other’ is pretty much the same as mine on that subject. What are you getting at with ‘the way forward’ ? I want a successful and continuing TUFC. No split on that. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 20, 2018 12:10:39 GMT
These are all initiatives over and above the great work that the TUST Board do behind the scenes engaging with the club and also ensuring the long term sustaibaility and protection of it. I can put my hand on heart and say that from the moment I have been involved there has never been anything other than a willingness to do all we can to ensure our club continues to exist and prosper. There is not a single person on the TUST board that wants anything other than this. There is nobody on an ego trip, there are no left wing militants amongst the TUST Board much to Alpine Joe's possible disappointment. However, I have always worked on the mantra that perception is reality and hence if TUST is viewed in a certain way by individuals then it is for TUST to try and overcome this and demonstrate why we exist and what our purpose is. This doesn't happen overnight, but if anyone were to read the TUST brochure we have recently put together or indeed take the time to speak with anyone from TUST, I fail to see how any TUFC supporter would not be aligned to the same objectives. The important thing is that the TUST Board that have been built are genuine supporters who have bought into the pupose of TUST and want to actually "do something positive". They are not just names who are part of a board for the sake of it. Each board member together with the sub-teams that Michel has implemented have roles to undertake and are willing to do this. Florida, I think your perception of TUST is wrong and Matt in parts of his post clearly counters that perception. I think that community ownership has been put forward quite strongly as an option twice in the last few years and will do so again which has led to that perception which is not the case. Was definitely worth refreshing Matt Gorman’s post, rjd. Flo’s blinkered and limited ‘you own or you don’t in this world’ thinking from across the pond on the subject is not new. Albeit he blows hot and cold. I’m sure we’ll get more repeats from him and the more consistently bizarre AJ on here now that TUOSC, a body citing lack of support from the club, is no more. TUST is the sole option if you want to belong to a supporter organisation now, it would seem. If you don’t want to, then you don’t. Militancy, hostile takeover bids etc are simply the language of two posters on one of three forums who repeat their mantra many times over. And will again. Guaranteed. The original title of the thread is well answered by Matt Gorman, while drawing on the past and present. Thank you Pete for pointing out that the Fan Zone had to be done by an outside body as terms of the grant and that therefore it needed to be those that applied for it. I hadn’t appreciated that, but it obviously makes sense that it would be that way. I note TUST’s request on the website for volunteers to man it was clearly open to all supporters. www.tust.co.uk/news-minutes/torquay-united-fanzoneOf course, Pete’s ‘collection of individuals’ as a description of our overall fan base is a proper description of TUST membership too, hence the adoption of one vote per member for its direction and the election of a board to carry out that direction on its behalf. A system we’re all very used to. The future of TUST. Something for its members and elected board to shape. T’was ever thus. |
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Post by gullone on Oct 21, 2018 15:32:46 GMT
Also I disagree with the statement "We have a split can base like no other..." ; yes the fan base is split, but that isn't unique or unusual. The fan base is a collection of individuals whose common denominator is supporting TUFC but beyond that there is no reason to expect any coming together of minds on any particular subject. That is the same at all clubs. Gullone - Pete’s answer to your observation ‘we have a split fan base like no other’ is pretty much the same as mine on that subject. What are you getting at with ‘the way forward’ ? I want a successful and continuing TUFC. No split on that. I am simply referring to the issue of private ownership of the club as opposed community ownership. As i was doing my best balancing act with the teas yesterday under the pop side i could over hear the gentleman who i presume is the TUST rep quoting the stock answer that community ownership is only a back up... a safety net if you like. God knows how many times he has to cover the subject but good luck to him. As a long term TUST member yourself i do realise that you have no time and extreme distrust in the current regime and i do appreciate we are in a very high risk situation. However do you still think that community ownership would be a viable proposition for this football club bearing in mind the growing list problems at clubs who have taken this route ? |
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Post by AliTUFC on Oct 21, 2018 15:43:59 GMT
Gullone - Pete’s answer to your observation ‘we have a split fan base like no other’ is pretty much the same as mine on that subject. What are you getting at with ‘the way forward’ ? I want a successful and continuing TUFC. No split on that. However do you still think that community ownership would be a viable proposition for this football club bearing in mind the growing list problems at clubs who have taken this route ? Surely it would be preferable to being non existent? |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 21, 2018 15:52:45 GMT
It’s not trust membership that causes my own concern with this owner, gullone. It’s first hand experience of him killing off a sporting entity I enjoyed. His actions since taking over of talking about new stadia and then seemingly disappearing are exactly what I have known before.
I would go along with the backstop option, myself. Incidentally, there is nothing then stopping a community owned club selling on to private ownership if the members decided a white knight had arrived (Osborne referred to such as a sugar daddy), as has happened and been highlighted by AJ elsewhere.
Part ownership and a voice on the board for supporters is another matter altogether, but not what you asked so I won’t go into that. I would not be opposed to a supporter voice on the board. Much of that depends on whether a local board trumpeting owner or otherwise wanted such.
Where it has not worked, you may feel those clubs had no alternative but to turn to it, hence the appeal of the backstop as opposed to suspicion of it. I’d want TUFC to still exist after Osborne and his loans pull the plug on us. Fairly simple, really.
Other TUST members may have different views. That’s how it works.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 21, 2018 15:53:36 GMT
However do you still think that community ownership would be a viable proposition for this football club bearing in mind the growing list problems at clubs who have taken this route ? Surely it would be preferable to being non existent? Thank you for being far more succinct than me. That’s the bottom line for a lot of members, I would guess. All are different, but that is a common theme I have experienced when talking with others. |
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Oct 21, 2018 17:13:00 GMT
i do appreciate we are in a very high risk situation. However do you still think that community ownership would be a viable proposition for this football club bearing in mind the growing list problems at clubs who have taken this route ? I genuinely do not understand why any supporter would not want a backstop in place particularly as we are in a high risk situation. There may not be any appropriate private investment propositions out there- the previous owners took us to the brink of administration in 18 months but were initially heralded as the clubs saviours despite having limited funds. The nearest professional club to us has now had 15 years of community ownership- is that not something worth learning from and replicating? |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 21, 2018 19:06:22 GMT
The nearest professional club to us has now had 15 years of community ownership. Indeed. And it’s a darn sight better than previous dishonest private ownership that club had. They got themselves ready to fill an ownership void with less members to start with than our TUST presently has, too. In the process, they saved their club so that it could enjoy those Cup pay days and transfer fees from their Academy that followed. All clubs should have a backstop option if enough of their fans desire it. And a vehicle exists for this. One that can provide Legends nights, Fan Zones, etc, too. If other fans don’t want a backstop, that’s their choice in high risk or low risk times. It doesn’t have to mean those that want one don’t try and create one. I note from (the probably unreliable) Wikipedia that 110 supporters trusts own equity in football clubs in the UK. Hadn’t realised the number was that high. Seems like quite an increase since I last looked. (As an aside, and in no way relevant to anything at Torquay, I was also staggered to read that apparently 200,000 supporters belong to the Manchester United Supporters Trust from that same search.) |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Oct 21, 2018 23:01:30 GMT
However do you still think that community ownership would be a viable proposition for this football club bearing in mind the growing list problems at clubs who have taken this route ? Lots of football clubs have problems - not just those that are community owned. Would you really really rather have no club at all than one that was either saved or resurrected by supporters pulling together? Exeter City have had their problems but are sitting second in League 2. By your logic, it would have been better if fans had sat back and let the club die 15 years ago. Halifax have had their problems. Now mid-table in the league we wish we were in. Disaster after disaster at Chester and York. Yet both are sat on exactly the same points as privately-owned Torquay United at the same level of the pyramid - in a division widely believed to be stronger - Chester with a game in hand. Aldershot, Maidstone, Wimbledon, Scarborough, Hereford ...... None of these places would even have a football club without supporter action - after private ownership failed spectacularly. I would be really interested to know why you think none of those clubs are worth having, whilst Torquay United is. I just cannot follow the logic. I am not at all surprised that most supporters do not think about a Plan B. I can understand that most supporters are happy to cross their fingers and hope that what has happened to so many other clubs will never happen to us. We all hope that. I can understand why supporters would rather have a multi-millionaire benevolent benefactor bankrolling the club. Who in their right mind would not? What I cannot understand is why some see fit to jeer and sneer at those who are prepared to put in the legwork to provide a plan B. By all means pray that this Plan B never gets used. I am sure the people planning Plan B pray the same. I would love to understand where you are coming from on this Gullone - and Plainmoorpete too. I know you are both just as passionate TUFC fans as I am. Please do take the trouble to explain your stance more. |
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Post by gullone on Oct 22, 2018 16:06:46 GMT
However do you still think that community ownership would be a viable proposition for this football club bearing in mind the growing list problems at clubs who have taken this route ? I would love to understand where you are coming from on this Gullone - and Plainmoorpete too. I know you are both just as passionate TUFC fans as I am. Please do take the trouble to explain your stance more. Jon my first post was to merely gauge opinion on who supported private ownership as opposed to community ownership. I was wondering if over the last few years given the mistrust in the current regime if TUST members felt they now had the backing of the majority of supporters. I realise we dont have the choice of one or the other right now but going back to my original post i would hazard a guess at 50-50 among the fan base. Not an anti tust post by any stretch of the imagination but from what i have read, observe and know...you still dont have my support...not yet anyway. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 22, 2018 18:53:26 GMT
I've said before that I have no idea whether CO is a saviour or a charlatan. Consistency is key. You have also said the following:- My weakness is that I always try to see the good in people so when they say they will do something I like to take that at face value, unless I know from history that they can't be trusted. I know many have said that GI/RSL couldn't be trusted but in the 'face value' way, I wanted to give them every chance. However, when they take the piss, as RSL have, I tend to go completely the other way. To say I am hugely disappointed in how things are panning out is a total understatement. My optimism has turned into frustration now, because there is nothing I can do to influence events. As a self-employed businessman that's not a position I find myself in very often. This time next year there won't be a club and the redevelopment of Plainmoor into Plainmoor Park Luxury Apartments will have started. I’d put £2 a month down on a backstop if I felt that way. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 22, 2018 21:46:44 GMT
So now you're criticising me because I'm not still morose, and feel upbeat. Oh well, never mind the cracking new manager, the upturn in results, the cup run, the freehold not sold Nope. I was highlighting the inconsistency while oft claiming either steadfast resolve and/or consistency on matters based on business savvy and such like. Osborne a piss taker who will build flats on Plainmoor before the year was out was your matter of fact business based take. You’re blowing hot and cold again on this thread as predicted. That’s all. Anyway, as for the cracking new Manager, upturn in results, cup run and the freehold not sold, I also feel positive regarding those things. As will all TUFC fans - (except AJ on the freehold, possibly.) Long may our good results in NLS and the Cup continue. Jon’s dialogue with gullone and Pete is far more interesting in understanding how fans feel about stuff like trusts and supporter organisations than our spat over your latest newly found entrenched position anyway, so let’s agree to disagree and move on. |
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Post by plainmoorpete on Oct 23, 2018 15:34:53 GMT
I would love to understand where you are coming from on this Gullone - and Plainmoorpete too. I know you are both just as passionate TUFC fans as I am. Please do take the trouble to explain your stance more. What I didn't understand was Rjd's statement of TUST providing a 'fail safe in times of stress'. After it has been explained I now understand. However the previous TUST chairman had stated that his goal was community ownership as opposed to any private ownership. Nevertheless if TUFC found itself up for sale and no suitable perspective owners coming forward I think the best option would be to let it die and for the TUST to be the focal point of launching a Phoenix club that would not be lumbered with historic debt. The problem for anti Osborne supporters at the moment is that Osborne has played them a curve ball. These supporters said that Osborne was trying to destroy the club by neglecting the playing side in the hope that the club would lose paying support, thus enabling him to go to the council saying Plainmoor cannot support a football club therefore let me have it for housing. This scenario was ridiculous since if the club failed all Osborne would be left with was a worthless lease. But now to the uninitiated Osborne appears as a generous benefactor to the club and it is going to very difficult to convince people of the risk he represents to the club's existence. As you correctly say Exeter City have been a great success as a community run club but they have also had some very fortunate breaks. I honestly believe that TUFC can only return to the Football League if some private individuals are prepared to write off large amounts of money to make that happen because the club simply does not appear to have the means to find alternative revenue streams. The irony is that given the TV money and such like available that EFL membership entails it is probably cheaper to maintain a full time football club in the EFL than it is in the National League. |
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