rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 15, 2012 19:42:28 GMT
16 points from the first fifteen games last season was borderline relegation form but things didn't turn out too bad then!  In fact the next 25 games was the form of champions before slipping back to relegation fodder again!  What are we? Sometimes the difference between success and failure isn't that great and the tune on here would have been different if say Nico hadn't made that mistake and Bodin had put his chance away. Tough start with lots of injuries has made it very difficult for things to click and we need to keep working hard to turn things around. Funny enough, it was a 4-0 victory against Wimbledon that did it last year.... |
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Sept 15, 2012 20:23:14 GMT
Last year was slightly different, though, in that the problem we had was that we were struggling to defend rather than score. The most important thing that came out of the Wimbledon match last year was that we kept a clean sheet, not so much the 4 that we scored because we'd already proven capable of scoring plenty of goals. The paintball session may have been a contributory factor in sorting that problem. Aside from the defence, we weren't looking too bad - mountains were made out of molehills on that occasion
Our struggles to score are a lot longer-running than our defensive issues of last year. People were commenting about our lack of goals even when we were in the middle of the great runs we went on last season. The loss of O'Kane, a key creative outlet, has only made things worse. Although the stats suggest we did have a few attempts on goal today, one Torquay fan, who is usually very positive, said after the match that we didn't muster up a single proper shot on target, which is worrying, and again a continuation of the Plymouth match where we really struggled to carve them open - whereas we still created plenty of chances last year and just didn't take them, now we don't seem to be creating any at all. The Rochdale game is beginning to seem like an anomaly
We can blame teams for "setting up for a draw" but at the end of the day, that's just good defending (and for a side that "came for a draw", Argyle created quite a few good chances, more than we did). You have to beat what's in front of you, and you can't make any excuses if you don't - it's the same game that both sides are playing. It's pointless making the excuse of "well every side came to Plainmoor for a draw this year" if you've barely won a game all season and got relegated - it also suggests that teams haven't been coming to Plainmoor for a draw, but that we're just not very good going forward. It's the same with Liverpool at the moment - the "we're unlucky because we keep hitting the woodwork" excuse only holds for the first couple of times it happens; if it keeps happening, that suggests carelessness and poor finishing
With every match that we play, it's becoming increasingly evident that we're struggling to score - 14 goals in 15 competitive matches shows this has been going longer than just the duration of this season. It's fortunate that we are coming up against one of the worst defences in the division next - a 4-0 win would be a nice confidence boost again, but in a different way this time. But are we capable of it? Do we have the players? Is it confidence or are we simply lacking creativity? And it's worth bearing in mind this from their perspective - they're probably looking at us and our lack of goals and thinking "yes, this is a great opportunity to get a clean sheet under our belts", so it works both ways. It's clearly a pivotal match for both teams
The reason I'm concerned (but not worried) is that not scoring is a bigger problem than conceding too many. In 2002-03 we finished 9th despite conceding 71 goals over the course of the season, which is usually quite a lot. It's possible to leak goals and do OK providing you score one more than the opposition. Not scoring is a bigger problem because you can't win matches if you don't score
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Post by petergodfrey on Sept 15, 2012 20:36:36 GMT
One of the poorest performances from a United side I have seen for a long time and yet we only lost to a gifted goal. We made Rotherham look good and they did pass the ball well at times but I can't help thinking they were there for the taking if we had turned in a half-decent show. As for events, we made few chances in the first half, although did get behind them a couple of times, being let down by the final ball. It has to be said that Poke didn't have a lot of saves to make either although we were lucky when they struck the inside of the post after the big striker was allowed to run too far with the ball. The goal came about after a ball was dropped into our box with no real danger but it dropped between Nico, another defender and Poke. Nico didn't wack it out, Poke didn't come for it and Revell nipped in to toe it home. We hardly turned up for the first 35 minutes of the second half and Rotherham started to look more dangerous with all the possession. In the first half we played the ball somewhat aimlessly out of defence at times but now we went through a shambles of a spell when we got caught in possession or gave it away for fun. None more so than Downes, who seemed to lose his bearings completely for a bit, leading to another lucky esacpe when Odejeyi (wrong spelling?) got clean away, delayed his shot when Poke stood up to him, tried to go round our keeper and got blocked out. Rotherham then hit the post again and I couldn't help thinking we might just nick something as they couldn't put us away. The chance came late on when we finally stepped up a gear. Thompson started to run at them and got behind them twice, the first time over-hitting his cross but the second time teeing it up on a plate for Billy who blasted it over from 10 yards or so, with his wrong foot unfortunately. To sum it up - Poke - partly to blame for the goal but otherwise ok; Nico - ditto; Oastler, did ok against Pringle who looked lively and was made MOTM but didn't get behind Joe a lot; Saah, ok but struggled to win in the air; Downes as above; Stevens disappeared after half time, then taken off; Manse tireless as usual but couldn't inspie us to get passing; Craig, tidy from deep, nice left foot, occasional over-ambitious pass which didn't quite make it (not the only one !); Morris - worked hard but not too effective; Billy - poor game, lost possession a lot, no contact with Rene ( did Billy play Monday ? did this affect him?); Rene - probably our best player, won a lot in the air, a lot of movement. Thompson looked good when he got the ball in space and could run at them; Jarvis only had a few touches but this time did nothing wrong. Coming away from the ground I got chatting to a smartly dressed guy who introduced himself as Howard Webb's dad (apparently Webb is an"ambassador" for Rotherham. He said he wouldn't mind having our number 9. A Rotherham supporter caller to radio Sheffield said a similar thing while pointing out it was a 1-0 drubbing ! I still think our best 11 is fine and hopefully we will turn it round as we did about this stage last season - we have probably played a number of the better sides so far.
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wigstongull68
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Post by wigstongull68 on Sept 15, 2012 20:43:48 GMT
Woeful! Shambolic out of sorts defending, generally a midfield bereft of ideas and a strike force lacking in strikes. The millers hit the woodwork twice, had a one on one cleared off the line and pretty much looked like the only side worth points. Nathan Craig was our motm by a country mile, he constantly found space in the middle and sprayed balls around at ease. So obviously the only answer was to replace him early in the second half. Nicho, Saah and Poke got mixed up for the goal leaving Revell (a lovely bloke, wasn't involved in any diving or cheating, his parents must be proud  ) to slam into an empty net. Another mix up, this time between Downes and Poke nearly led another in the 2nd half but it came to the edge of the box and it was hammered high over. Then Downes missed (yet another) long ball through but after the striker rounded our keeper he found Downes had recovered to clear off the line. Posts were clipped once in each half, and although I haven't seen possession stats yet, I would imagine they make fairly grim reading. I don't recall a shot on target, certainly nothing to create panic. Unfortunately the subs made little or no impact on this occasion. I'm sure Lingy won't put up with this level of performance too many times, and I'm even more certain that the players themselves won't want a repeat. The Wimbledon game can't come quick enough, and I look forward to seeing an improvement at my next game at Chesterfield. |
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Post by loyalgull on Sept 15, 2012 20:55:48 GMT
we were spoilt for goalscorers last year,mansell,ellis,robertson,stevens etc all popped in crucial goals,aiding rene howe who led the line.
This year captain marvel mansell doesnt look the same player at all yet,downes has hit the net with a couple,and of course rene pops up,but shackle him as teams are doing now and our goal option is nullified,not only that its bloody boring to watch with one up front,we are conceding and not scoring a recipe for disaster,as chelstongull says unlock the war chest and get in a striker to help rene,before the season fizzles out completely
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Post by stewart on Sept 15, 2012 22:04:11 GMT
not only that its bloody boring to watch with one up front Be careful !! I have been pilloried on many occasions for saying just that. It's not only a recipe for disaster, as you rightly say, but in my opinion it's sheer madness on the part of a manager who wants to be seen to be doing something innovative but doesn't have good enough players to carry it out. |
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 15, 2012 22:41:08 GMT
Thanks for those match reports gentleman, much appreciated, even if they don't make for pretty reading. ;D
James - I take you point about not scoring, particularly with Eunan now gone and it is also a concern that Ricardo mentioned to me just before the Cheltenham match where we then ironically promply scored six against them and Rochdale that week. Of course, 1 goal in three games since is a concern but we know that Ling keeps it tight away and we were never going to score a hatful at Port Vale and Rotherham. I am not convinced that drawing parellels with the tail end of last season is entirely valid as Howe was injured and many of the other players were tiring due to the lack of strength in depth within the squad.
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Sept 16, 2012 6:33:19 GMT
but the form table doesn't lie Er... yes it does: Swindon P5 W1 D0 L4 F5 A6 Pts 3 That was at the end of August 2011 and it took them until the first weekend of March to lose another four games. The form table is a snapshot of past performances and any club in it can turn around and reel off a run of improved results. Otherwise we might as well stop now and relegate Barnet and Brizzle. I like the form table but it has no tangible bearing on the result of any game of football. |
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Sept 16, 2012 6:37:05 GMT
We were pretty damn awful today by all accounts, struggling to create anything against a side that conceded 6 last week, which is merely a continuation of last weekend. 6 of the 7 goals we've scored this season came in 2 consecutive matches - since then we've barely looked like scoring James, I thought Jon successfully disproved your use of "by all accounts" last Saturday! ;D I was clearly wrong. And I thought we looked like scoring a hat-full last weekend against GAWS, and would have done if all those shots hadn't kept hitting parts of GAWS defender's bodies. |
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Sept 16, 2012 6:41:02 GMT
Looking at the stats, looks like we're lucky to have only conceded the 1 Lies, damned lies and statistics. In-play match stats are actually highly flawed - I wish I'd taken a snapshot of that point in the Rochdale game where we had scored 4 goals with only 15% of possession and 2 shots on target... |
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Post by berksgull on Sept 16, 2012 7:16:47 GMT
Agree with the thoughts above. We didn't turn up as was nearly the case for myself after spending longer than anticipated on the m1.
Although they have some impressive stats, I didn't think Rotherham were by any means top class and had we had a few more players in the zone we might have given them a better game.
Front three were ineffective and off the boil. Any chances we did have ( which were few) were poorly executed.Bodin had a chance towards the end after a great ball from Thompson and he snatched at it and missed the target from the penalty spot area.Summed up his game and the nonsense goal we gave away which was nearly repeated in the 2nd half summed up the non participation from half the team.
Let's hope we turn up on Tuesday.
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Sept 16, 2012 8:16:31 GMT
Just seen the goal on Sky Sports, jeez what a goal to let in. I'm sure I heard Nico shout "After you Claude" and Pokey shout back "No after you Cecil" and poor old Brian (was it him), not sure what he was doing (trying not to head the ball I expect in case.....) and before you could say "Gong are appearing live at the Exeter Phoenix on Friday 16th November 2012 with doors opening at 8.00pm, tickets priced at £18" - the ball was in the net.
Do I hear the War Chest keys jingling.......................?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 16, 2012 8:32:18 GMT
Many thanks for your reports and thoughts not only on the match itself, but also our current league form. If I went and told anyone today that my team just lost its first game of the season so far, they would say back to me that my team must be doing well then.
The stats that Jamesb has put up do a story and they can’t be ignored, but as Rags pointed out “The form table is a snapshot of past performances and any club in it can turn around and reel off a run of improved results”
We all know that is so true, Paul Buckles team went on a number of what I would call bad runs and yet the said team went on to win promotion back into the football league. It was hard to understand how a team that broke records for the longest amount of games played not conceding a goal, could then go on a run where they could not stop letting them in and as a result losing a good number of games in a row.
For me the question is has the team been weakened too much after a number of key players moved on and is the formation we are playing part of the reason we are not scoring many goals and not winning matches.
The club did very well in the transfer market as far as the amount of money raised by selling players, none of that money has found its way back to the playing squad and could that also be a part of the problem? Have we replaced the players we have lost, with ones good enough to fill their boots? Or are we simply missing the flair and creativity those players brought to the team?
Teams that play with only one striker up front, tend to me more solid in midfield making them harder to break down and score against. No team so far has given us a right going over and the only game we have lost so far was by a single goal and we gifted that one to them.
I can’t comment on how good we are in defense as I have not seen the team play, but those facts alone do suggest to me, that at least on one part of the pitch, we are not doing to badly. Many of you say we are missing O’Kane in midfield and yet on one match report from yesterday’s game, I read “Nathan Craig was our motm by a country mile, he constantly found space in the middle and sprayed balls around at ease”.
For me it you are going to play with just one up front, you need pacey wingers and midfield players who can quickly support the front man when he has the ball at his feet, do we have such players? One would think if you do play with two strikers, you greatly improve your chance of scoring goals and I would bet there are stats that might just prove that really is the case.
I have read on here that many think a number of teams we have played so far this season, came to only draw the match. Is that really the case? Could it not be the case Martin Ling sets his team up not to lose? And as a result we do not create that many goal scoring opportunities that then would turn draws into wins?
How often have we heard the words “a team needs to learn how not to lose games first” but then it’s also said the “best form of defense is attack“Both in my view are correct, but you do need the players out there to do it and you do need to play the right formation. Is that two up front?
Another thing you hear said is “half the team never turned up” or the team had not got of the bus” You can understand any one player having a bad game, even the very best strikers for example, can have spells where everything they hit goes in and then spells where they can’t get a single shot on target. But what happens when so many in one team in a given match, seem to be well below par and not performing as well as they normally can.
Maybe sometimes its no more that the effects of traveling long distance to matches, there is always a good argument for over night stays, but as we know cost will always play a big part in deciding if over night stays should happen. Other reasons might simply be down to what is going on behind the scenes in any club, or the mood in the dressing room. As far as we know, things are very good behind the scenes and under Martin Ling, there has never been any suggestion the dressing room is not fully together as was often the case when Paul Buckle was our manager.
So I do not think just yet we have too much to worry about and no major alarm bells need to start ringing, its clear in my mind we do need to add to the squad as the injuries we have had so far this season, has played a major part in my view, to the results we have achieved.
The ground improvements have been very welcome and much overdue, but fans need to see investment in the team and just maybe some of the money that did come in, should have been spent trying to bring in one or two extra players who could turn our side not only into a winning team, but one that really would be a promotions candidate.
It could well be the case we win our next game and then go on a winning run that would see us climb the table, its happened many times before and it’s just what happens in this wonderful game we all love so much. We need to keep the faith with Martin Ling who will be fully aware where are shortcomings are and will be working hard to put anything that is wrong right.
The problem these days with the cost of watching football at our level is fans will be lost if they do not feel they got the entertainment they were looking for and the style of play boarders on boring or poor to many times. I’m not suggesting for one moment that we are a boring side to watch, I simply do not know, but its winning teams that stand a far better chance of holding on to the floater type fans.
It is the product out on the pitch the club has to sell, get it right and people will want to buy it, get it wrong and they will stay at home and save their money. I’m convinced things will turn around soon as I just happen to think Martin Ling is the best manager we have had for a long time. But any manger is only as good as his last result and I do hope he can turn things around as If not, I’m sure it would not be too long before we would start seeing Ling out type threads on the forum.
We have had so many good seasons recently, it can be argued we do punch above our weight in this division; one only has too look at the team we played yesterday, to know we are always going to find it hard to compete on and off the pitch with clubs like that.
We can and always should be very proud of our little seaside town football club, but we should never forget that is just what we are and situated in a place where so many of the people living here, do not follow the team as such. Yes they all come out when we do have those big days like a final at Wembley, it’s just a shame they do not support eh club on a weekly basis. But once again I will state that so many here in Torbay are living on or just above the breadline and for many, even if they wanted to attend home games, it’s just not financially possible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 8:42:26 GMT
Good grief. Looks like I'm completely out of synch with the general mood this morning. No foam coming from my mouth at the moment although I'll just go next door and check in the mirror.
No, I'm okay. No signs of a face puce with rage either. So maybe it's guilt that's weighing me down today. Guilt that I had an enjoyable day yesterday when clearly, after reading this forum after a long night's sleep, I should be in a totally foul mood roaming the streets yelling "disgrace" and sending off angry letters - written in green ink perhaps? - to all and sundry. If that was the case poor old Wildebeeste would be in for a hard time when we meet for breakfast at Endcliffe Park.
Instead I'll sheepishly admit to a pleasant day in the Rotherham sun. A couple of hours mooching around the town and its' former football grounds; a visit to a splendid new football ground located ideally; an average football match in which my team performed mediocrely (something I've witnessed on a semi-regular basis over the years and tend to take in my stride); followed by a couple of pints in the Kelham Island pub in the convivial company of three like-minded blokes from London who formerly contributed to this forum. Yep, I've had worse days and - with a string of late nights and those two drinks - I was blissfully in the land of nod by nine o'clock.
Maybe I'm in a placid mood about yesterday because I only had to travel a few miles there and back. I wasn't up at the crack of dawn, travelling hundreds of miles and spending my hard-earned cash on hopeless footballers who can't even be arsed to thank me - personally of course - for the amazing personal sacrifice and extreme ordeal I've just experienced.
Well, oddly enough, I've never actually felt like that when I've had fifteen-hour days on the road and rails watching Torquay United. It's a hobby and something to which I freely decide to devote time and money. Nothing's guaranteed, human behaviour and weaknesses are involved and, quite simply, there will be days when my team doesn't perform well. Sadly too, there isn't a correlation between distance travelled and outcome. I know I could be going two hundred miles to see a commanding display or a damp squib. Furthermore, having taken note of football scores over the years, I know there is a pretty strong likelihood that my team - the away team - is the less likely to win. So, please, no sympathy. I don't deserve it.
None of this should hide the fact that it was a rather tepid display yesterday. Dull maybe, but not Armegeddon. To use one of those shorthand summaries: okay in the middle of the pitch; not so hot at the back or in the final third. Now if that's the prognosis for the season, it's not good. Certainly, if we play as yesterday for the rest of the season, there won't be too many laughs. We weren't inept but we weren't impressive. It was probably a moral 2-0 defeat - not a tanking - and, in the nature of these things, the chance of a draw was there to the end. We've not won often yet; we've not lost often; we've played several teams that may do well. I'm not expecting us to pull up too many trees and I'm anticipating a largely uneventful season (can we cope with this?). But last time I ventured similar thoughts we went on a storming run. Who knows what may lie ahead.
As has been stated, the defence experienced periods of chaos yesterday. My hearing is on the wane - just like my eyes - so I can't be sure who is making "calls" (or failing to do so) but there do appear to be communication issues between goalkeeper, defenders and between defenders. Prior to yesterday I'd only seen Aaron Downes at Fleetwood. I hear he is a good player but against Rotherham he struggled and had a particularly ropey spell in the second half. I know Kevin Nicholson is a good player but he wasn't at his best yesterday. Lee Mansell is amongst my all-time Torquay players but I sense he's not been quite as Herculean as usual for a while. But Nathan Craig played well yesterday - remember that substitutions can be for a variety of reasons including tactics and stamina - and Niall Thompson definitely caught the eye when he came on (including his defensive attributes and all-round contribution). Joe Oastler keeps improving; Rene - frustrating bugger that he may occasionally be - is the real deal at this level. Billy Bodin might not be quite at the races yet. It's difficult when a large price tag - by our standards anyway - is involved but my gut feeling is that he needs time. Time for a young player to adjust from being a promising fringe player at one club to being one of the "main men" at another. Time too for Lingy to work on formations that best accommodate Bodin home and away and against different types of opponents. When Bodin signed I wanted to urge caution and sensed it may be next season when his arrival really pays dividends. That's almost impossible to argue when it's such a small squad and we've paid a near club record fee. So, in that sense, I guess he remains a key signing. As does Downes and, we must hope, Craig Easton. Indeed, to me, the contribution of all three players looks central to our season.
So don't panic yet. I'm sure it's too early for gloom, despondency and knee jerk reaction to descend upon this forum. And, let's face it, if it proves to be a mundane season - and you have to mournfully turn to "prog rock" for your entertainment - then so be it. We can cope.
Meanwhile, speaking of "prog rock", I'll just Google "Gong" to find out more. Whoever they may be, I'm sure they're more likely to depress my soul than Torquay United at this stage of the season.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 16, 2012 8:54:35 GMT
If that was the case poor old Wildebeeste would be in for a hard time when we meet for breakfast at Endcliffe Park. Nice summary Barts!  Will there be a breakfast report as well! ;D I suspect that there will be a TFF pre match breakfast as well at some point this season.  |
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In fact the next 25 games was the form of champions before slipping back to relegation fodder again! 
What are we?
