Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Jan 28, 2013 17:35:46 GMT
I was having one of my regular Monday and Thursday morning chats in Yeovil with a Yeovil fan. As always the subject was football and we ended up talking about the weekend FA cup games. He was keen to talk about the Oldham v Liverpool game and told me that when Yeovil played against Oldham earlier in the season, he thought they were the worst team in the division.
He was so surprised watching the game on the TV, just how well Oldham played, but one thing the commentator kept saying really got on his nerves a bit as it was something he really did not agree with.
What that commentator kept repeating was that it would not be too long before the superior fitness of the Liverpool players came into effect, therefore expecting Oldham to somehow wilt and be out played due to lacking the fitness of the Liverpool players.
While we would all agree I’m sure that as far as skill and technique are concerned, a premiership team would be streets ahead of the sort of players that would be found in the Oldham side, but would they really be that much fitter?
It’s not the view my Yeovil fan shared and he went onto say that surely players in all the four divisions train as hard, if not harder the lower down the league they play in. I’m sure it’s not the case but I have always thought players playing in the very top level, do not train as hard as say players playing for Torquay United.
One would have thought that due to the sort of pitches players at our level sometimes have to play on, that they would build up even more stamina than players who always play on the very best pitches.
What do you think?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2013 17:57:42 GMT
It’s not the view my Yeovil fan shared and he went onto say that surly players in all the four divisions train as hard, if not harder the lower down the league they play in. I'm not sure that surly players work harder then nice ones. If that's the case then Joey Barton must be the hardest trainer of them all. |
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Jan 28, 2013 18:57:03 GMT
It’s not the view my Yeovil fan shared and he went onto say that surly players in all the four divisions train as hard, if not harder the lower down the league they play in. I'm not sure that surly players work harder then nice ones. If that's the case then Joey Barton must be the hardest trainer of them all. Me and my spelling  , missing the spell checker on here already, I have edited my first post |
|
JamesB
TFF member
Posts: 1,526
|
Post by JamesB on Jan 28, 2013 20:05:26 GMT
I'd say most top tier players have that little bit extra all round, so fitness is part of that. Pace, and the speed at which players can react and think, is probably the main one, alongside shooting/passing/crossing accuracy - see Villa vs Bradford from last week, where Bradford just looked slow and ponderous when Villa were pushing hard for a goal
|
|
|
|
Post by geddingtongull on Jan 28, 2013 23:01:32 GMT
As we don't have to rotate our squad each week or 'rest' players I would imagine our players are a lot fitter.
|
|
JamesB
TFF member
Posts: 1,526
|
Post by JamesB on Jan 29, 2013 17:51:13 GMT
The top clubs don't necessarily all rotate - only the teams that play in European competition need or can afford to rotate on a large scale. Take Messi, for instance. He plays virtually every match for Barcelona in a season - that's 38 league matches, up to 9 Copa del Rey matches (as each round bar the final is played over 2 legs), up to 13 Champions League matches, and usually the Spanish Super Cup which is played over 2 legs. That's a total of 62 matches, and that's not including the UEFA Super Cup and Club World Championship which the Champions League winners play in, which is a further 3 matches on top of that, as well as international tournaments (Copa America every odd-numbered year, a long South American World Cup qualification league, and the World Cup itself every four years) and pre-season friendlies
In total, he must be available for about 75-80 matches a year, which is a darn side more than what our players get played - and our players were still knackered by the end of last year. It's no wonder the top clubs have to rotate - if they didn't, their players wouldn't last the course of a season, and would probably be injured a lot more and burned out far sooner. Granted, Messi doesn't play in every single match in a season, but he plays in the vast majority because he's such an important player - even the cup matches which English clubs tend to rotate for. Even when he doesn't start, he's usually on the bench. And he never gets injured. It's remarkable
|
|
|
|
Post by lambethgull on Jan 29, 2013 21:25:04 GMT
I have always thought players playing in the very top level, do not train as hard as say players playing for Torquay United. One would have thought that due to the sort of pitches players at our level sometimes have to play on, that they would build up even more stamina than players who always play on the very best pitches. What do you think? I think that's a load of cobblers tbh, Dave. Whilst the commentator in the Oldham v Liverpool game was probably trotting out FA cup cliches, I think it's a fact that Premier League players are where they are because they are stronger, more athletic and quicker than their lower division counterparts, not just more skillful. |
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Jan 30, 2013 12:07:42 GMT
I have always thought players playing in the very top level, do not train as hard as say players playing for Torquay United. One would have thought that due to the sort of pitches players at our level sometimes have to play on, that they would build up even more stamina than players who always play on the very best pitches. What do you think? I think that's a load of cobblers tbh, Dave. Whilst the commentator in the Oldham v Liverpool game was probably trotting out FA cup cliches, I think it's a fact that Premier League players are where they are because they are stronger, more athletic and quicker than their lower division counterparts, not just more skillful. Not the first time Lambie you have thought my views were cobblers,  but then there are times they are for sure and why it’s good to hear other peoples opinions as they so often come up with points one might not have considered. In this instance you are simply stating that what you claim is a FACT and I’m not sure that really is the case. I think everyone would agree that players who play in the premiership are more skilful and might even have far better football brains, but are they really more “stronger, more athletic and quicker”? I think by making that claim you do an injustice to so many players who play in the leagues below the premiership. There are plenty of players playing in the lower leagues who process as much pace as the fastest players in the premiership, likewise there are plenty who are as strong and athletic as any premiership player and the only reason they might be still playing in a lower league is down simply to footballing ability. Are you saying that any young player would have to greatly up their fitness level etc, to play in the premiership? I only ask as thinking about young players like O’Kane who we know has plenty of ability, I might argue he is as fit as he can be and in his case it’s only his size that might make any real difference. These days’ clubs take training so seriously and I would be surprised if there was any real difference to the way a club like ours would approach player training to that of any club in the premiership. |
|
JamesB
TFF member
Posts: 1,526
|
Post by JamesB on Jan 30, 2013 15:20:31 GMT
Dave, I think you underestimate how fit and athletic the best Premier League footballers are overall. I can see where you're coming from but I think you fail to take into account the fact that these top players have to be the complete package. Certainly you may have players in the lower leagues who are as quick or quicker than top flight players, but then they won't have some of the other attributes like skill or technical ability; similarly, there may be some players who have the technical ability of much better players but don't have the pace
That's why League Two players are in League Two - virtually every member of our squad, bar those that came through our academy and our two centre-backs, started out at a club that has been in the top flight since I was born. They aren't there now because they weren't complete - either they didn't have the focus to play at the top level, the pace, the physique, the mental toughness, the work rate, the decision-making abilities or the technical ability. Take Danny Stevens - on his day, a very skilful player who has scored some very good goals for us, but there are two clear problems: he is very small and he is inconsistent. Even if he did suddenly develop consistency and grew another foot in height, there's no way he could adapt back to playing for Spurs now because he has spent so long with us - he won't have maintained that extra bit of fitness and sharpness you need to play at that level. Once a player drops from the top flight down to the lower leagues, it's virtually impossible to get back up there unless you're part of a team that gets promoted to there, like Grant Holt or Rickie Lambert
Ultimately it's decision-making, and especially the speed of decision-making, that's probably the biggest determining factor for playing at the top level - you have to be quick and think quick. You can get away with being a bit slow if you can make good decisions quickly - it's why John Terry is just about hanging on to a first team spot at Chelsea despite having lost a bit of pace. The Premier League is probably the quickest, most intense league in the world. In Spain or Italy there is more focus on technical ability than athletic ability but even so, decision-making is still key
But pace is still a big deal - you're not guaranteed to be a top footballer if you're super-quick but you'll never make it if you're slow. Take the best two players in the world - Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. The reason they are the best is because they are brilliant in all areas, and that includes being very quick. Ronaldo was one of the quickest players in the Premier League when he was here and yet unlike Theo Walcott had brilliant technical ability and decision-making with that. Messi is much the same - he's very quick but the ball sticks to his feet like it's covered in glue
You only need to watch any Premier League vs lower league encounter to see this. The only way a lower league side can beat a Premier League side is by absorbing pressure, hoping they miss chances, and then nailing them on the break once or taking advantage of one error. A League Two side is never going to beat a Premier League side on technical ability or pace. You're never going to outplay a team 3 divisions above you unless they pick a team solely made up players that are either young, inexperienced, old, unfit or completely lacking in understanding with the rest of their team. This was clear when we played Stoke in the summer - we only got back into the game when they took off all their best players and lost their shape
In addition to this, the Premier League clubs have much better technology at their disposal. Mourinho several years ago was intimating that Chelsea were engaging in borderline doping - "blood-spinning", supplements and other such activities - and I doubt he was doing things that other clubs weren't doing. Where we have a physio, the top clubs have physios, nutritionists and doctors, along with far better facilities, in order to maximise the abilities of the players and help players recover from injuries faster. They also have better coaches who can really help players develop much faster and to a higher ability, and more scouts with much more detailed analysis of teams they are coming up against - do we even have a specialist scout watching the teams we're about to face? This can lead to targeted training
In short - in terms of natural fitness, some of our players may be on a par with the top players, but in practice the top clubs have the facilities and staff to maximise their potential a lot more effectively, so the top players will be fitter on the day
|
|
|
|
Post by lambethgull on Jan 30, 2013 21:45:14 GMT
Not the first time Lambie you have thought my views were cobblers, but then there are times they are for sure and why it’s good to hear other peoples opinions as they so often come up with points one might not have considered. Probably no need for the 'cobblers', but it's nothing personal, Dave. I just don't agree. Fair enough. Let's debate then. As James points out, "footballing ability" isn't some mysterious quality, it's a combination of things: speed of thought, reaction speed, pace, dexterity, strength. I happen to believe the best footballers have these attributes, and that the best footballers do not play in Leagues 1 or 2. No, I'm saying a young player playing in the lower leagues would need to demonstrate that he has the required attributes to play higher up. Putting in extra hours on the training field won't be enough if the raw material isn't there. Which isn't to say that hard work can't help players realise their full potential. As James says, the resources available at Premiership clubs are something else. That said, I would say other things such as coaching, healthcare, nutrition, skill levels are almost certainly greater than any differences in relative cardiovascular fitness. |
|
|
|
Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Jan 30, 2013 22:31:47 GMT
I was astonished to be told at the weekend about the tie-up in the Premiership with Lucozade and the funding that it generates. There is a 'payment per view' - they have a more or less unlimited supply of lucozade and the pastic drinks bottles and every time a player appears on the tellybox drinking or holding a bottle then the club received a cash payment - this applies to all clubs. I happen to know that the highest earners last season were Chelsea (and the only club that didn't participate was Man U, who have a tie-up with Gatorade). This meant that the guy's club was able to employ two full-time sports analysts and nutritionists on this funding stream alone, and they are one of the smallest clubs at that level. The technical approach (urine analysis in the couple of days after a match) that they have to sports conditioning is mind boggling - everything on the pitch and before the match is geared to ensuring that they get the very best of each player.
The food that is provided each day is for £15 per individual on the playing staff and for 6 days a week is just short of £3k. In addition to this, every night before the match there is a team meal, with a fillet steak or chicken breast for each player as part of the buffet. Ten years ago the same guy used to eat his pre-match meal of chicken, beans and pasta at a cafe. All a bit of a change over the years.
We have had people like Paul Mortimer, Simon Harling and Stuart Bruce-Lowe involved in this sort of area of the squad preparation. Presumably we have this function within the club (maybe rolled-into Damien Davey's role?), but it can't be anywhere near that of clubs in the divisions above and couldn't possibly be expected to be with a club of our resources.
|
|
Jon
Admin
Posts: 6,912
|
Post by Jon on Jan 31, 2013 0:15:15 GMT
Good points on here both about the incredible resources that top clubs can throw at doing things and the observation that nearly all Premier League players will be excellent athletes AND excellent footballers whilst League 2 players may be one or the other.
I think Nico made this point in an interview - saying that his physique made it impossible for him to ever be a Prem player despite having been the top left back in the country as a teen. I seem to remember him remarking that LRT did have the physique to play at the top level. Nico's football ability + LRT's physique = Premier League player. LRT's football ability + Nico's physique = Western League Premier League player.
|
|
Dave
TFF member
Posts: 13,081
|
Post by Dave on Jan 31, 2013 18:47:53 GMT
Many thanks for all the excellent points you have made on this thread, I think I now have the answer to my opening question.
|
|
rjdgull
TFF member
Admin
Posts: 12,227 
|
Post by rjdgull on Apr 23, 2022 18:56:50 GMT
I see that Man City have got Jesus more or less performing miracles on the pitch for them - link |
|
, missing the spell checker on here already, I have edited my first post
but then there are times they are for sure and why it’s good to hear other peoples opinions as they so often come up with points one might not have considered. 
