Post by rjdgull on Feb 4, 2013 22:33:33 GMT
Many apologies for the lateness of this but a combination of finding my way around the new system, a really busy weekend and maybe just a little sulk after my team lost again, meant I never quite got around to putting this up. Many thanks to Dave by the way for putting the work in to put the upgrade into place and now that I have got used to it can see many features that are an improvement on the old format.
Anyway, a familiar poster gets to go in yellow after making some top quality posts which is what this forum is all about so once again, many congrats to Jamesb. I chose the post below as the amount of research for one post was pretty much out on another level (apart from the history room!) and made an interesting read if not an entirely enjoyable one.......
Using 70 minutes in as my cut-off for winners/equalisers conceded:
12/08/06 - Torquay 1-2 Lincoln (Garner 52, Morgan 90, Gritton 90) - 3 points dropped
19/08/06 - Hartlepool 1-1 Torquay (Phillips 5, Bullock 81) - 2 points dropped
26/08/06 - Torquay 2-2 Chester (Ward 43, Broughton 55, Ward 74, Martinez 90) - 2 points dropped
23/09/06 - Macclesfield 3-3 Torquay (Mansell 33, Morley 43, Bullock 48, Thorpe 67, Ward 85, Swailes 90) - 2 points dropped
26/09/06 - MK Dons 3-2 Torquay (Ward 8, Ward 45, McLeod pen 50, McLeod 59, Wilbraham 84) - 1 point dropped
30/09/06 - Torquay 0-1 Notts Co (Dudfield 90) - 1 point dropped
17/10/06 - Bristol Rov 1-0 Torquay (Anthony 89) - 0 points dropped but eliminated from the FLT
30/12/06 - Torquay 0-1 Macclesfield (Morley 90) - 1 point dropped
01/01/07 - Bristol Rov 1-0 Torquay (Sandell 84) - 1 point dropped
13/01/07 - Torquay 2-2 Bury (Ward pen 32, Ward pen 49, Pugh 79, Bishop 90) - 2 points dropped
03/02/07 - Torquay 1-1 Barnet (Taylor 45, Nicolau 89) - 2 points dropped
24/02/07 - Torquay 0-1 Darlington (Joachim 87) - 1 point dropped
17/03/07 - Accrington 1-0 Torquay (Cavanagh 90) - 1 point dropped
24/03/07 - Shrewsbury 1-0 Torquay (Asamoah 77) - 1 point dropped
09/04/07 - Swindon 2-1 Torquay (Sturrock 2, Thorpe pen 82, Jutkiewicz 83) - 1 point dropped
14/04/07 - Torquay 1-1 Peterborough (Hill 45, Mackail-Smith pen 71) - 2 points dropped
21/04/07 - Wrexham 1-0 Torquay (Roberts 79) - 1 point dropped
28/04/07 - Boston 1-1 Torquay (Mansell 49, Broughton 83) - 2 points dropped
I make that 26 points dropped through not being able to hang on to wins or draws that season (there were also a couple of matches where we were only 1 down until late on). We were 13 points from safety at the end of the season. 26 points extra would have put us 14th, closer in points to the play-offs than the relegation zone. So not an insignificant sum of points, and definitely crucial to our relegation
So how does that compare to this year?:
21/08/12 - Torquay 2-2 Cheltenham (Harrad 15, Downes 22, Howe 23, Zebroski 80) - 2 points dropped
22/09/12 - Torquay 1-1 Burton (Howe 18, Zola 89) - 2 points dropped
16/10/12 - Torquay 2-2 Yeovil (Jarvis 24, Hayter 38, Jarvis 57, Hayter 90) - 0 points dropped but eliminated from the FLT
20/10/12 - Bristol Rov 3-2 Torquay (Eaves 15, Lund 17, Howe 53, Downes 59, Eaves 76) - 1 point dropped
06/11/12 - Barnet 1-0 Torquay (Kamdjo 79) - 1 point dropped
08/12/12 - Bradford 1-0 Torquay (Connell 85) - 1 point dropped
15/12/12 - Torquay 1-1 Northampton (Jarvis 62, Langmead 90) - 2 points dropped
26/12/12 - Plymouth 1-1 Torquay (Downes 78, Harvey 90) - 2 points dropped
01/01/13 - Torquay 2-3 AFC Wimbledon (McCallum 5, Mansell 9, Mitchell-King 33, Howe 90, Long pen 90) - 1 point dropped
12/01/13 - Burton 2-1 Torquay (Jarvis 43, Zola 59, Paterson 84) - 1 point dropped
I make that 13 points dropped. Compared to 06/07 on this date, it's exactly the same, although we'd lose another 2 on 13th January 2007. In terms of number of matches, we've thrown away results in 10 this year, whereas the Bury result on 13/01/06 was the 10th of the season
When I started working on this, I had no idea the figures would be so close. I honestly thought 06/07 would look a bit worse. But it's quite concerning that it's not far off identical. Obviously there is context to be added - the Bury draw was the 18th league game in a row that we hadn't won (not counting the 2 FA Cup match wins), which isn't as bleak as our current run, and we were 5 points off the bottom and 7 points off safety. 13 points extra would have put us 17th, whereas 13 points extra right now would put us 3rd
But nonetheless, the consistent loss of points late on is a worrying parallel. It shows that fundamentally decent teams can be seriously harmed by a lack of an ability to hold their collective nerve at the end of a match. You don't have to be a dreadful team to do dreadfully, unless you count a consistent inability to hold onto a result as being dreadful - which, given the fact that the table is determined by the result when the final whistle blows, I guess it is. Ultimately every team out there is judged by the final result, not how they get to that result
Also, for all the revisionism and the poor players we had at times that year, I maintain that the side that was relegated wasn't all that bad, apart from at holding on. I don't know what it was about that team but they always seemed to have a knack of letting things slip - two years of downward momentum probably didn't help
It's often forgotten that we started the season relatively well - 17 points (4 wins and 5 draws) from the first 10 matches isn't bad at all. We were 7th in the table at that point. We'd be bottom by Boxing Day, having lost 12 of the next 15 (again not including the FA Cup ties). We'd only pick up 15 more points after that - once the rot set in and confidence was destroyed, it was very difficult to get it back, especially when you're in a mindset of trying to hold on. Going deeper or heading for the corner flag at the end of a game becomes instinctive, and it ends up leading you into the exact situations you were trying to prevent
We only lost heavily once that year - 5-0 at Mansfield. The vast majority of defeats were by the odd goal or 2, as has been the case this year. There have been very few dreadful teams in this league down the years who have been consistently hammered - the vast majority of teams are relegated because they are consistently edged out in close games, not because they're getting tanked 5-0 every week
We have to learn from this. We cannot let it get into a situation where we're stuck in a losing mentality and things are going out of control. I don't believe the 06/07 side was a bad one and I don't believe this year's side is a bad one (other than a lack of options). I don't believe Atkins and Curle were bad managers (Kubik perhaps is a different matter, though not all his fault) and I don't believe Ling is a bad manager. But if you're sticking with players who are constantly throwing away results late on, don't expect anything other than more results thrown away late on - that's logical
There is an element of luck to it but ultimate responsibility has to lie with the players and the manager. There are 101 ways to win a football match. Hanging on for grim death in the last 10-15 minutes is just 1, and it's not very reliable. Scoring more than 1 goal more than the opposition in the other 75-80 minutes is a far better option. By not doing that, you're only putting pressure on yourself
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"
Anyway, a familiar poster gets to go in yellow after making some top quality posts which is what this forum is all about so once again, many congrats to Jamesb. I chose the post below as the amount of research for one post was pretty much out on another level (apart from the history room!) and made an interesting read if not an entirely enjoyable one.......
12/08/06 - Torquay 1-2 Lincoln (Garner 52, Morgan 90, Gritton 90) - 3 points dropped
19/08/06 - Hartlepool 1-1 Torquay (Phillips 5, Bullock 81) - 2 points dropped
26/08/06 - Torquay 2-2 Chester (Ward 43, Broughton 55, Ward 74, Martinez 90) - 2 points dropped
23/09/06 - Macclesfield 3-3 Torquay (Mansell 33, Morley 43, Bullock 48, Thorpe 67, Ward 85, Swailes 90) - 2 points dropped
26/09/06 - MK Dons 3-2 Torquay (Ward 8, Ward 45, McLeod pen 50, McLeod 59, Wilbraham 84) - 1 point dropped
30/09/06 - Torquay 0-1 Notts Co (Dudfield 90) - 1 point dropped
17/10/06 - Bristol Rov 1-0 Torquay (Anthony 89) - 0 points dropped but eliminated from the FLT
30/12/06 - Torquay 0-1 Macclesfield (Morley 90) - 1 point dropped
01/01/07 - Bristol Rov 1-0 Torquay (Sandell 84) - 1 point dropped
13/01/07 - Torquay 2-2 Bury (Ward pen 32, Ward pen 49, Pugh 79, Bishop 90) - 2 points dropped
03/02/07 - Torquay 1-1 Barnet (Taylor 45, Nicolau 89) - 2 points dropped
24/02/07 - Torquay 0-1 Darlington (Joachim 87) - 1 point dropped
17/03/07 - Accrington 1-0 Torquay (Cavanagh 90) - 1 point dropped
24/03/07 - Shrewsbury 1-0 Torquay (Asamoah 77) - 1 point dropped
09/04/07 - Swindon 2-1 Torquay (Sturrock 2, Thorpe pen 82, Jutkiewicz 83) - 1 point dropped
14/04/07 - Torquay 1-1 Peterborough (Hill 45, Mackail-Smith pen 71) - 2 points dropped
21/04/07 - Wrexham 1-0 Torquay (Roberts 79) - 1 point dropped
28/04/07 - Boston 1-1 Torquay (Mansell 49, Broughton 83) - 2 points dropped
I make that 26 points dropped through not being able to hang on to wins or draws that season (there were also a couple of matches where we were only 1 down until late on). We were 13 points from safety at the end of the season. 26 points extra would have put us 14th, closer in points to the play-offs than the relegation zone. So not an insignificant sum of points, and definitely crucial to our relegation
So how does that compare to this year?:
21/08/12 - Torquay 2-2 Cheltenham (Harrad 15, Downes 22, Howe 23, Zebroski 80) - 2 points dropped
22/09/12 - Torquay 1-1 Burton (Howe 18, Zola 89) - 2 points dropped
16/10/12 - Torquay 2-2 Yeovil (Jarvis 24, Hayter 38, Jarvis 57, Hayter 90) - 0 points dropped but eliminated from the FLT
20/10/12 - Bristol Rov 3-2 Torquay (Eaves 15, Lund 17, Howe 53, Downes 59, Eaves 76) - 1 point dropped
06/11/12 - Barnet 1-0 Torquay (Kamdjo 79) - 1 point dropped
08/12/12 - Bradford 1-0 Torquay (Connell 85) - 1 point dropped
15/12/12 - Torquay 1-1 Northampton (Jarvis 62, Langmead 90) - 2 points dropped
26/12/12 - Plymouth 1-1 Torquay (Downes 78, Harvey 90) - 2 points dropped
01/01/13 - Torquay 2-3 AFC Wimbledon (McCallum 5, Mansell 9, Mitchell-King 33, Howe 90, Long pen 90) - 1 point dropped
12/01/13 - Burton 2-1 Torquay (Jarvis 43, Zola 59, Paterson 84) - 1 point dropped
I make that 13 points dropped. Compared to 06/07 on this date, it's exactly the same, although we'd lose another 2 on 13th January 2007. In terms of number of matches, we've thrown away results in 10 this year, whereas the Bury result on 13/01/06 was the 10th of the season
When I started working on this, I had no idea the figures would be so close. I honestly thought 06/07 would look a bit worse. But it's quite concerning that it's not far off identical. Obviously there is context to be added - the Bury draw was the 18th league game in a row that we hadn't won (not counting the 2 FA Cup match wins), which isn't as bleak as our current run, and we were 5 points off the bottom and 7 points off safety. 13 points extra would have put us 17th, whereas 13 points extra right now would put us 3rd
But nonetheless, the consistent loss of points late on is a worrying parallel. It shows that fundamentally decent teams can be seriously harmed by a lack of an ability to hold their collective nerve at the end of a match. You don't have to be a dreadful team to do dreadfully, unless you count a consistent inability to hold onto a result as being dreadful - which, given the fact that the table is determined by the result when the final whistle blows, I guess it is. Ultimately every team out there is judged by the final result, not how they get to that result
Also, for all the revisionism and the poor players we had at times that year, I maintain that the side that was relegated wasn't all that bad, apart from at holding on. I don't know what it was about that team but they always seemed to have a knack of letting things slip - two years of downward momentum probably didn't help
It's often forgotten that we started the season relatively well - 17 points (4 wins and 5 draws) from the first 10 matches isn't bad at all. We were 7th in the table at that point. We'd be bottom by Boxing Day, having lost 12 of the next 15 (again not including the FA Cup ties). We'd only pick up 15 more points after that - once the rot set in and confidence was destroyed, it was very difficult to get it back, especially when you're in a mindset of trying to hold on. Going deeper or heading for the corner flag at the end of a game becomes instinctive, and it ends up leading you into the exact situations you were trying to prevent
We only lost heavily once that year - 5-0 at Mansfield. The vast majority of defeats were by the odd goal or 2, as has been the case this year. There have been very few dreadful teams in this league down the years who have been consistently hammered - the vast majority of teams are relegated because they are consistently edged out in close games, not because they're getting tanked 5-0 every week
We have to learn from this. We cannot let it get into a situation where we're stuck in a losing mentality and things are going out of control. I don't believe the 06/07 side was a bad one and I don't believe this year's side is a bad one (other than a lack of options). I don't believe Atkins and Curle were bad managers (Kubik perhaps is a different matter, though not all his fault) and I don't believe Ling is a bad manager. But if you're sticking with players who are constantly throwing away results late on, don't expect anything other than more results thrown away late on - that's logical
There is an element of luck to it but ultimate responsibility has to lie with the players and the manager. There are 101 ways to win a football match. Hanging on for grim death in the last 10-15 minutes is just 1, and it's not very reliable. Scoring more than 1 goal more than the opposition in the other 75-80 minutes is a far better option. By not doing that, you're only putting pressure on yourself
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"