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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 11:29:50 GMT
Bluedragon's welcome interest in our Scottish international players has encouraged me to start this thread about the players from Scotland who have appeared for Torquay United over the years.
Hopefully the information will grow and people will add their memories of some of the players listed. This post is only the starting point as it solely relates to those who made Football League appearances for the club between 1927/28 and 1998/99. It's based entirely upon information in the statistical section of the centenary history. I can't speak of the accuracy of the data but I'm trusting. My counting and transcription may be another matter.
I've found sixty-seven Scottish-born players in the list. There may be more because there are players for whom a place of birth is not recorded. I've catalogued them by the decade of their debut following the book's convention that, for example, the 1950s covers 1950/51 through to 1959/60. Where the book records a transfer to or from a Scottish club I've recorded the name in brackets (including Gretna who would have been playing in English football at the time):
1920s (10):
Billy Brown
Jack Conner
Hugh Good
Bill Henderson (Morton)
Bill Hunter
Dan Kelly
Andrew Martin
Tom McGovern (Queen of the South)
Bob Preston
Daniel Thompson
1930s (8):
John Calder
Les Gardiner (Hibernian)
James Gaudie
Jimmy Hart
Len Kingwell
Robert Mackie
Ted McArthur (Raith Rovers)
Willie Miller (St Johnstone YM)
1940s (13):
Andrew Brown
Hugh Cameron (Clyde)
Bill Harrower (Third Lanark)
John Hillard
Archie McFeat (Morton)
Henry McGuinness
David Pryde
Joe Rae (Celtic)
John Reid (Hibernian)
Hugh Reynolds (Morton)
Colin Syme (Dunfermline)
Dave Topping (Clyde)
Frank Winters (Clyde)
1950s (7):
Tommy Anderson
Hugh Brown (Partick)
John Dougan
Jimmy Kirk
John Morrison (Morton)
Billy Muir
Bobby Taggart
1960s (7):
John Benson
Andy Donnelly
Robert Gray (Inverurie Locos)
Ernie Hannigan
George Potter
John Reid
Alan Welsh
1970s (9):
Willie Brown
David Downs
Duncan Forbes
Fred Jardine
Freddie Pethard
Andy Provan
Steve Ritchie (Aberdeen)
Tommy Sermanni
Charlie Williamson
1980s (10):
Dave Caldwell
Jimmy Cochrane
Alan Hay
Eddie Kelly
Tom Kelly
Steve Lennox
Jim McNichol
Brian O'Donnell
Jimmy Smith
Willie Young
1990s to 1998/99 (3):
Mark Hawthorne
Brian Healy
Gary Neil
The likes of David Graham and Martin Gritton were to come. And, as is the way with these things, the list includes a mixture of hugely-significant, memorable players and those who have passed through the club without leaving much of a mark. I'm sure a cracking All-time Torquay United Scottish XI can be quickly assembled to challenge the rest of mankind.
The early involvement of Scottish players is noticeable remembering that the 1920s only covers 1927/28 to 1929/30. Add in the 1930s, up to 1939, and by then - of all the players who'd played for us in the Football League - 10% had been born in Scotland. The large numbers fielded in the first four seasons after the war puts this proportion up to close on 14% by the summer of 1950.
Thereafter the numbers fluctuate until, just as the total number of players appearing for the club sharply increases, the Scots fall off. By the end of 1998/99 Scots account for less than 9% of all the players who've appeared since 1927; the proportion would be considerably smaller by now.
There are some oddities. Bruce Rioch played for Scotland but wasn't Scottish-born. The second John Morrison (late 1980s) was born in Kettering but I'm pretty sure he was raised in Scotland. Internet research indicates he later won a Scottish Junior medal with Pollok and now lives on Bute. My assumption is that he was a Corby Scot.
I believe too that John Benson and Brian Healy moved to England at an early age; I understand the same applied to Chris Robertson in more recent times.
In the centenary list there's also a few non-Scottish players who've been associated with Scottish clubs immediately before or after their time at Plainmoor: Jimmy Drinkwater (St Mirren); Steve Kendal (Gretna); Chris Myers (Dundee United); Wes Saunders (Dundee); Justin Fashanu (Airdrie); Charlie Smith (Aberdeen).
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Post by bluedragon on Jun 9, 2014 19:08:16 GMT
A great list Barton!
I have had a look at the pre-war players. I have added a wee bit about your players and added some "possibles" although they may never have played and Jon has already ruled out Patrick Corcoran. Anyway I have included them all as it will be easier for you to rule them in or out.
1920s (10):
Billy Brown - Played football in England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales
Jack Conner - I have him as John Connor (Celtic, Alloa and Dykehead)
Hugh Good
Bill Henderson (Morton) - Also played for Hearts, Aidreionians, St Bernards and Broxburn
Bill Hunter - I don't think he played Senior football in Scotland
Dan Kelly - Blantyre Victoria, Hamilton Academical,
Andrew Martin - Played Junior football in Scotland for Ardrossan Winton Rovers
Tom McGovern (Queen of the South)- Played for Clydebank as well
Bob Preston - Brother of Harry
Daniel Thompson - Played for California United in..........Stirlingshire!
Possibles?
PATRICK CORCORAN Never played for Torquay according to Jon
PETER GAFFNEY With Torquay 1927/28ish?
JAMES KIRKPATRICK With Torquay 1924/25ish? Played for Dumfries forerunner to Queen of the South
ALFRED LESLIE I have a record of him at Torquay circa 1925/26
THOMAS MILLER
HARRY PRESTON Brother of Bob
BRUCE WALLACE With Torquay 1924/25 ish?
1930s (8):
John Calder One - of three footballing brothers
Les Gardiner (Hibernian)
James Gaudie - I don't think he played Senior football in Scotland
Jimmy Hart - Played for Hibernian in 1938/39
Len Kingwell - Played war-time football for Hearts
Robert Mackie - Played for Queen of the South
Ted McArthur (Raith Rovers) - Played for Alloa as well
Willie Miller (St Johnstone YM)
Possibles?
EDWARD LOWERY - Played for East Fife - I think he was Scottish
JAMES BAXTER - Joined Torquay United from Reading in 1930/31 won a Scottish Junior Cup winners medal with Parkhead in 1923/24
1940s (13):
Andrew Brown - Played for Cumbernauld Thistle, a Junior team, in Scotland
Possibles?
THOMAS RYAN Signed for Celtic
Torquay United players born in England played in Scotland
ALBERT BOXHAM - Played for Raith Rovers in 1928/29
HAROLD GOULD - Played for Hibernian 1917-19
LESLIE LIEVESLEY - Played for Raith Rovers in 1941-43
GEORGE THOMPSON - Was he with Torquay in 1922/23 Played for Dundee
Torquay United players born in Wales played in Scotland
CHARLES SMITH - Played for Aberdeen late 1930's/early 1940's
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 22:24:30 GMT
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Post by bluedragon on Jun 10, 2014 6:09:55 GMT
Thanks for the links to the previous threads, Barton. I look forward to reading them.
John/Jack Connor - I have the same date and place of birth as you i.e. 26 April 1898 and Kirkmuirhill. I have a date of death of 1967.
Ted Lowery - I have him signing for East Fife on 16th December 1930 as a 20 year old. He signed for Leicester City on 11th May 1932. I also have a place of birth as Walker. As far as I am aware there is no "Walker" in Scotland and I cannot find his birth, marriage or census record in Scotland. Mining could have brought his family to Scotland from the North East of England when he was young.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 9:14:25 GMT
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Post by bluedragon on Jun 10, 2014 22:17:43 GMT
Here is some bits and pieces on the post-War Scots. Same as with the pre-War players I have just put it all down.
1940s (13):
Hugh Cameron (Clyde) - Played for Benburb (Juniors) and a short spell at St Mirren
Bill Harrower (Third Lanark) - I think he started with Dunfermline
John Hillard - I have no details on him other than being at Torquay.
Archie McFeat (Morton) - Was a Junior with Polkemmet and also played for Dumbarton, Albion Rovers, Falkirk and Stenhousemuir
Henry McGuinness - No details of him playing in Scotland
David Pryde - Another Scot signed by Arsenal's nursery team of the time Margate
Joe Rae (Celtic) - Also Arthurlie (Junior) Raith Rovers Kilmarnock
John Reid (Hibernian) - Played Junior for Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic former players include Sir Sean Connery
Hugh Reynolds (Morton)
Colin Syme (Dunfermline)- Was reinstated as a Junior with Rosyth after his Senior career
Dave Topping (Clyde) - Played for Carluke Rovers.
Frank Winters (Clyde) - Was a Junior with Arthurlie
Possibles?
FRANK WALSH - I have him at Torquay from Celtic in August 1949 - maybe did not play?
1950s (7):
Tommy Anderson - Scottish clubs were Haddingtoon Athletic (Junior), Queen of the South, Falkirk, Ayr United, St Mirren
Hugh Brown (Partick)
John Dougan - A product of Bellshill Athletic (Junior)
Jimmy Kirk - Played for Annbank United (Junior) before signing for St Mirren
John Morrison (Morton)
Billy Muir - I would be very interested to get more information on this player.
Bobby Taggart - Coltness United (Junior) Berwick Rangers & Montrose
Possibles?
JIMMY DRINKWATER Long-serving St Mirren player - joined Torquay in 1952/53? You think he is English
JOHN FRIEL Played for Auchterarder Primrose - Scottish Junior clubs often take their name from the flora - Torquay 1952/53?
WILSON MARSH I have him as a 'keeper for Torquay in 1959/60 was he a Scot?
1960s (7):
John Benson - Another who did not play in Scotland
Andy Donnelly - Played for Shotts Bon Accord Coltness Urd (Juniors) Sirling Albion & Clyde
Robert Gray (Inverurie Locos) - I have seen a thread here about him he became a manager/coach in the Junior game on returning to Scotland
Ernie Hannigan - St Rochs (Junior) and Queen of the South
George Potter - Arbroath Lads Club and Forfar Athletic
John Reid- Kello Rovers and Hamilton Academical
Alan Welsh - Another Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic man
1970s (9):
Willie Brown - We have discussed him on another thread
David Downs - Eastern YM and Queen's Park
Duncan Forbes - Played as Junior in Scotland for Musselburgh Athletic before moving south
Fred Jardine - Product of a famous Edinburgh boys/youth team - Edina Hearts
Freddie Pethard - Originally with Celtic
Andy Provan - A product of Port Glasgow Rovers as was Davie Provan Celtic & Scotland) 13 years later - family connection?
Steve Ritchie (Aberdeen) - Do you have a date of birth? I have 17 February 1965
Tommy Sermanni - Cumbernauld United (Junior) Albion Rovers & Dunfermline - was he a Scottish Schoolboy cap?
Charlie Williamson - Played for Falkirk
1980s (10):
Dave Caldwell - Started and finished with Aberdeen clubs - Banks o' Dee and Cove Rangers
Jimmy Cochrane - A product of Drumchapel Amateurs (the Drum) a conveyor belt of talented players
Alan Hay - Unusually dropped out of league football to play Junior for Hill of Beath Hawthorn before returning to the league game
Eddie Kelly - A product of Possilpark YMCA
Tom Kelly - Was signed by Partick Thistle, Hibernian & Queen of the South but only made one senior appearance in Scotland
Steve Lennox - Montrose, Forfar, East Fife, Peterhead & Huntly
Jim McNichol - Never played in Scotland
Brian O'Donnell - Did not play in Scotland
Jimmy Smith - Signed direct as a youth by Torquay?
Willie Young - Another Arthurlie man
1990s to 1998/99 (3):
Mark Hawthorne - Never played in Scotland
Brian Healy - I have no record of him
Gary Neil - Did not play in Scotland
Possibles?
JOHN MORRISON This is the player you think was born in Kettering won a Scottish Junior Cup winners and runners up medal playing for Pollok also played for Irvine Meadow - I would be interested in more details on his career.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 19:37:58 GMT
Thanks for the background, Bluedragon. Fascinating to see how many of those players have links with Junior football. I've used the centenary history and Barry Hugman's league appearances book (2005 edition) to add a few things as below:
John Hillard - half-a-dozen games 46/47. Born Aberdeen 3/9/16. Pre-war Coalville, Leicester and Grimsby.
Henry McGuinness - more commonly known as "Harry" but Hugman says it was "Hendry" anyway. Signed from Royal Marines football in Plymouth.
Bill Harrower - does anybody know if he is the father of Steve who played for Exeter and Yeovil?
Frank Walsh - Hugman has him at Southport October 1949.
Billy Muir - b Ayr 27/8/25. From QPR; to Tonbridge. Torquay 52/53; joined QPR from Irvine Meadow Feb 1949.
Jimmy Drinkwater b Northwich, Cheshire 10/2/18. Wartime circumstances?
Wilson (Eddie) Marsh; goalkeeper. Born 14/12/27; Hugman says Dundee; centenary history reckons Croydon.
Robert Gray: strong Highland League connections; I remember reading about him in the Sunday Post on holidays to Scotland. Keith and/or Huntly?
Steve Ritchie b 17/2/54. Brother of Tom. Scored for Aberdeen in 1978 Scottish Cup Final.
Dave Caldwell: occasional contributor to this forum.
Tom Kelly - didn't know about him making a senior appearance. QoS presumably? Long spell at Taunton Town after Torquay; suspect still involved with a club in South Devon. I saw him play for a final, final time two years ago in a Torbay Sunday final.
Jimmy Smirh - youth trainee from Johnstone. Good career at Cheltenham in the Southern League.
John Morrison - arrived with Jimmy Smith I think. Same age; each signed pro' July 1988. Both sources say Kettering 27/7/70. 24+8 league appearances; Sherpa Van Trophy finalist 1989.
Brian Healy - Glasgow 27/12/68. Pretty sure he moved to Co Durham as a child. Signed from Morecambe; England Semi-Pro international.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 21:17:00 GMT
And so to the period after 1999. I'm convinced I'm going to overlook somebody glaringly obvious.
Scottish born:
Craig Easton
David Graham
Martin Gritton - born Glasgow; moved to Cornwall whilst at school.
Paul Jarvie - goalkeeper; one game 04/05. Dundee Utd, Clyde, Peterhead?
Martin McNeil - ex-Cambridge
Stuart Noble - on loan from Fulham
Chris Robertson - Sheffield U, PNE, Port Vale. Dundee born; pretty certain moved to Nottingham when very young.
Blair Sturrock - only appeared in the Conference
There's a number of non-Scottish players who've played in Scotland. That's been something of a trend compared to the past; difficult to track because of loans, etc. I've managed:
Nicky Banger (Dundee)
Mo Camara (Celtic and St Mirren)
Leon Constantine (Partick Thistle on loan from Millwall)
Mark Dobie (Queen of the South; also Annan and Gretna as non-league)
Ole Gottskalksson (Hibs)
Karl Hawley (Raith)
Christian Honor (Airdrie)
Paul McCallum (West Ham player on loan at Torquay and Hearts 13/14)
Robert Olejnik (Falkirk)
Jordan Robertson (Dundee United and St Johnstone)
James Sharp (Falkirk)
Enoch Showumni (Falkirk)
Some oddities:
Jack Compton (Falkirk). Hasn't played for us but son of a former player and manager. Some sources give place of birth as Torquay; others Cardiff.
Troy Douglin - an extended trial with Celtic that didn't come to anything; left professional football shortly afterwards.
And lastly a player called Keane. He played for us (one game) as Ashley; for Dundee (one game) as Kieran. There appeared to be a few inconsistencies in his story when he arrived at Plainmoor; even more so subsequently. I may have succumbed to Wiki once or twice myself but not when he comes to the playing record of "Kieren" Keane (as it is spelt in this instance):
2004 Southall 34 (37)
2004–2005 Weymouth 42 (19)
2005–2006 Torquay United 38 (9)
2006-2008 Dundee 28 (11)
2008 Mallorca B 14 (1)
2010 Charlotte Eagles 12 (0)
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Post by bluedragon on Jun 11, 2014 21:47:59 GMT
Thanks Barton. A few more bits and pieces.
I have just checked on Eddie Marsh and will claim him as a Scot! I have found Wilson Edmund Marsh born in 1927 in Dundee,
Tom Kelly had one League Cup appearance for Queen of the South 1984/85
Bobby Gray was a goalkeeper of some reputation in the Highland League (Senior non-league football) playing for Keith, Forres and Inverurie Locos. However he made his mark as manager in the Juniors leading Culter FC to a record four consecutive North Superleague titles from 2003/04 to 2006/07. As a result Culter were amongst the first four Junior Clubs to enter the Scottish Cup.
John Morrison played in two Junior Cup Finals
1996-97 Pollok v Tayport 3-1
1997-98 Arthurlie v Pollok 4-0
I have Kieran Ashley Keane joined Dundee on 12th August 2005 from Weymouth but only made one appearance as a substitute.
Frank Walsh - checked again and I only have the one stray reference to him at Torquay.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2014 8:06:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2014 12:15:41 GMT
I have Kieran Ashley Keane joined Dundee on 12th August 2005 from Weymouth but only made one appearance as a substitute. Kieran/Kieren Ashley Keane is a mysterious figure. Not only does his age change occasionally - he was twenty-three upon joining Dundee, not twenty-two as reported - but the clubs and stories come in different sequences. The story about losing three stone because of glandular fever, which he related upon joining Dundee, suggests - at the very least - an extended bout of the illness. He's also honoured to be the subject of two Wiki articles: one as Ashley (which appears pretty accurate to me); the other as Kieren (which looks less reliable). It's difficult to substantiate much about his football career at all save for being appointed as a coach at a college in America. Oh, and an online Henley Town match report. Sometimes he's Irish; when in the USA he's English; in Britain he's American. Nothing new in that; I knew a multiple-identity Californian Paigntonian/Paigntonian Californian thirty odd years ago. Keane's main Internet profile is as the friend of Jay DeMerit who persuaded the aspiring footballer to try his luck in Europe around about 2003. The story we are told is that Keane was at Southall and Northwood with DeMerit before the latter joined Watford. Apparently Keane appears in a film about DeMerit's life. One cast listing I've seen includes both Ashley Keane and Kieren Keane. There's also a Jordan Keane but let's not complicate matters. |
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Post by stefano on Jun 12, 2014 16:41:22 GMT
Some fascinating stuff. Bob Gray well known in the Highland League interested me as I played with him a few times when he was on trial at Torquay. An interesting bit about him is that when we played Plymouth Argyle in the FA Youth Cup at Plainmoor and drew 1-1 Bob was in goal, but the following week in the replay at Home Park (also 1-1 after extra time) Bob was up front as striker (or centre forward as we called it then!). Robbie Robbins (a Newton Abbot boy) took his place in goal for the replay and Robbie later played I think 19 games for Torquay in the Football League but about 7 or 8 years later. Robbie was a great goalkeeper who I think could have achieved much more but he became a bit of a non-league journeyman and I am sure fell short of his capabilities. Anyway make the most of this thread while we got the chance. It will all end when they get their bloody independence!  |
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Post by bluedragon on Jun 12, 2014 19:16:20 GMT
I have followed up on Jimmy Drinkwater and as Barton thought it was Army service at Inverurie, near Aberdeen in 1941 that took him to St Mirren. It was interesting reading Stefano's post about Bobby Gray's outfield exploits as Jimmy Drinkwater had a similar experience in the opposite direction at St Mirren! A Daily Record article last year said he was emphasising his all-round skills to his manager and said "Boss, I've played in all positions bar two". The manager, struggling with a goalkeeping problem, said "and which are those Jimmy?". "Outside left and goalie. Boss" came the reply. "Make that one Jimmy you are reserve team 'keeper tomorrow". Apparently he did well enough in a 5-2 win to get a second game between the sticks! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 0:21:38 GMT
Anyway make the most of this thread while we got the chance. It will all end when they get their bloody independence! It must be Stefano's connections but I inexplicably thought he was talking about Cornish independence for a moment (a rather less just and less plausible cause). Just imagine trying to obtain a work permit for Saul Halpin. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 7:05:12 GMT
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