European Union: In or Out ?

I see Allan also faked a death threat email in 2015 and was forced to apologise for both this and later actions toward an employee. Sounds like a delightful libertarian.

Brexiteers moaning about Brexit again. It’s everyone else’s fault but them, isn’t it. No doubt the same record will be played when the costs of Brexit are borne by all.

link - incredibly complicated trying to keep up with all the ins and outs if you excuse the pun but explanatory documents have been produced

Cannot see this deal being voted through now. No deal virtually certain with Raab now gone. Will May now go?

rjdgull 

It's very difficult to predict, but my guess would be that leaving with no deal still remains the least likely outcome. Remainer May and the E.U knew exactly what they were doing in holding back this spectacularly bad deal until so late in the day. It's only a very few months until we Leave the E.U, and now, very much past the eleventh hour, for the possibility of a proper Brexit or 'No Deal' there is surely too little time to achieve it, even if we had a Government, or a House of Commons with the slightest desire to achieve it; and we haven't.

Remember that Cameron was proud to reveal that his Government was making absolutely no preparations in case of a 'Leave' vote. Our current Remainer May Government has been scarcely any better, even after the victory for 'Leave' in the referendum.

This morning we had the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Matt Hancock, on the news backing May's deal, and when questioned as to whether he had told yesterday's Cabinet meeting that people would die if we were to leave without a deal..........well, he didn't deny it. 

Or thinking back to last week what I read in The Spectator:

As one senior cabinet member puts it: ‘She used to say that no deal was better than a bad deal’. But what does she call this? How bad does a deal have to be before she admits that it’s a bad deal?’ Or to put it another way, why not go for no deal? It would be a clean Brexit, with the UK leaving the EU and free to regulate its economy as it saw fit, to strike trade deals with any countries it wanted to and to chart its own course in the world.

The reason the cabinet are baulking at no deal is that they know, in a way that the public does not, just how unprepared this country is for it. Few cabinet members want to be seen as the people responsible for it. By accident or design, May’s failure to make proper preparations for no deal has become her strongest card in forcing through her deal.


To me it looks as though the cunning and devious Remainers who run the Government, Civil Service etc, have primarily gone about achieving their first priority i.e to create the conditions by which no proper or meaningful Brexit can take place. Given the option of 'no deal proper Brexit' or May's 'deal' our Remainer packed House of Commons would still back May's deal. But, understandably, they don't quite fancy being the ones voting to lumber Britain with that awful deal, and so, as anyone tuning into the House of Commons debate today can witness, they're standing up one by one, and calling for a second Referendum, possibly I guess in the belief that after 2 years of incessant BBC anti Brexit propaganda, combined with a ramped up Project Fear, they could get the British Public to now vote to return to our E.U prison cell. Much better the public vote for their continued enslavement than the politicians take the blame for imposing it upon them.

May has set her stall so firmly against a second referendum (mind you, she's gone back on virtually everything she's previously said) that I wonder whether our Remainer Establishments best bet, even this late in the day, is to depose May and bring in a different Remainer Tory as leader, who can still announce a second Referendum without losing face ?

Remainiacs in charge of Leave, sadly they soon cottoned on that it was in their interest to botch the job as much as possible. They have most probably botched it (accidentally on purpose) so thoroughly that 'no deal' can no longer even hobble to the starting line, let alone be considered a serious runner.

As Rob alluded to yesterday, the days of thinking we'd Leave properly, keep our own money and be able to spend it on, for instance the NHS, have now entirely faded. May would rather spend £39 billion on this dogs breakfast to give us the worst of all worlds. I'm sure we all remember what Jacob Rees Mogg put in his letter yesterday: 'We should spend our money on our own priorities, for instance £39 billion could pay for 26,000 nurses for 40 years'.

Brexit means Remain.....it's just a matter of the Remainer establishment deciding whether there's any need to still bother attempting dressing it up as 'Leaving' i.e the May plan, or whether to ditch May and implement another plan. 

Interesting times, but I think the Remainer establishment went about burying 'No Deal' the very next day after the 2016 Referendum. That the powers that be would actually dig it up, let alone try and get it breathing, seems scarcely credible.  Would E.U Remainers negotiating with British Remainers create something that our parliament of staunch Remainers would actually reject in favour of implementing a proper Brexit, meaning we would actually leave ? 

I'm still answering 'certainly not' to that one, rather than 'virtually certain'  .

Rob

Almost definitely Rob, I can't imagine there were many at all who had any desire to stop people freely trading with each other. You would have needed a crystal ball back in 2016 to predict Remainer May as PM, cobbling a devious deal together with her mates in Brussels, and hoping we wouldn't notice that they'd come up with a deal that might actually draw us further under E.U control, and that we quite possibly could never get out of. Who in 2016 imagined that even a Remainer Government could advocate something that bad ? Certainly not the ordinary voter, I would contend.

An ex MP who still lives in Devon, and who has a column in the Daily Express every Wednesday  , wrote back on July 11th of this year:

Let there be no doubt. The PM's proposed Brexit deal means we are not leaving the EU. We are staying in all but name, accepting the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and accepting EU trade rules.

So we are still in but this time without a say because technically we will be out and not entitled to one. It is not a deal it is a surrender. Of course we need a trade deal with Europe but trade deals are about tariffs not courts and laws.


And so I think most participants were very amenable to a deal when voting in 2016. But the choice before them was 'Leave' or 'Remain'. Our Remainer Prime Minister really should have realised that it would be an almost impossible sell to convince people that signing up to be bound by EU legislation and regulations was part of 'Leaving', when it had all the same old hallmarks of 'Remain'. Just how was a Remainer Government ever going to advocate a plan of giving tens of billions to the E.U and immediately jumping back into their Customs Union as being part of taking back control and expect public support ?

In 2016 how many would even have dreamt that in late 2018 a 'deal' would in be no more than a cynical Remainer trick to effectively overturn the result of the Referendum ? Not many at all I'll warrant, most having more faith in democracy, and maybe naively believing the Remainer politicians did as well. Two years on and the public's eyes have been opened to the treachery and plotting, even to the extent that May has dressed up a 'Remain' plan, and tried to tell us it's just all part of leaving.

That's not to say that most of us don't have at least some sympathy for Remainer May. Her E.U Masters appear to have instructed her to deliver a deal that is so hopelessly one sided, and given her no permission to deviate even slightly from it, that the poor woman now finds herself up Remainer creek without a paddle.

Whether Big Business, the Media, and the metropolitan Left can dig her out remains to be seen. I wouldn't rule out the E.U loving Labour MPs eventually helping push through a Remainer Tory Government's pro E.U plans. Whether Tezza would still be PM at that stage is much more doubtful.

But yeah, who back in 2016 could have imagined a deal as shocking as this one that needs defeating now ? Even the Remainers seem appalled by it. 2016, 2018, or 2028......hopefully the British public will always continue to spot and reject a deal that would sell their country down the river.