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Post by stefano on Oct 9, 2023 16:37:14 GMT
It was tongue in cheek bobgull although thank you for the detailed explanation.
I am pleased to see that the War Chest is £60,000 should the need arise. Just £40,000 short of the £100,000 we had to borrow from Mr Osborne to pay the next weeks wages the last time the club was basically under fan ownership. About 6 years ago so allowing for rampant inflation .....
I of course am the same as any supporter in that I want the club to continue and would like them to have a certain amount of success, although as this is my 60th season my expectations are lower than they used to be.
As pleased as I am with the £60,000 standby fund I am not swayed in my view that had it not been for Mr Osborne and his money there would no longer be a Torquay United! 😉⚽️
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bobgull
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Post by bobgull on Oct 9, 2023 17:20:33 GMT
It was tongue in cheek bobgull although thank you for the detailed explanation. I am pleased to see that the War Chest is £60,000 should the need arise. Just £40,000 short of the £100,000 we had to borrow from Mr Osborne to pay the next weeks wages the last time the club was basically under fan ownership. About 6 years ago so allowing for rampant inflation ..... I of course am the same as any supporter in that I want the club to continue and would like them to have a certain amount of success, although as this is my 60th season my expectations are lower than they used to be. As pleased as I am with the £60,000 standby fund I am not swayed in my view that had it not been for Mr Osborne and his money there would no longer be a Torquay United! 😉⚽️ It's good to hear that you are pleased with TUST's efforts stefano. I don't want to be pedantic, but 6 fans each putting in a sum of money to keep the club afloat and to become directors is not a fan owned club. Fan ownership is the opportunity for all fans to buy a share in the club and have a equal say in how the club is run on a democratic, one member one vote basis. |
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Post by stefano on Oct 9, 2023 17:40:46 GMT
I don't disagree with your pedantic point bobgull I did say when the club was 'basically'under fan ownership. It was real fans, 10 to start with then quickly reduced to 6, raiding their savings / pension plans to keep the club afloat. Good on them and they all did it with the best intentions.
Didn't work though and it was them who had to borrow £100,000 from Mr Osborne to keep the club afloat.
And so it all started with Osborne still putting money into the club to keep it afloat. How long for though?
I am not anti TUST in any way but it does not change the situation that it is Osborne's money that has kept the club going and the £60,000 War Chest would disappear in the first weeks wages and the lecky bill for the evening midweek fixture!
The way ahead? Buggered if I know! 😉⚽️
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Post by plainmoorpete on Oct 9, 2023 18:33:15 GMT
How is that money being spent though? I am not sure you can justify our league standing with the “millions spent” and the debt against the club? This is only my feeling but I think we are where we are because the money is being spent badly. Quite simply GJ has recruited a poor bunch of players with a few exceptions, but those exceptions (Halstead, Lapsie, Jarvis) can't possibly carry the rest of the team who are either not up to scratch or are injury prone. When you have scarce resources you simply cannot afford to have players like Hall, Dawson and dare I say it Moxy in the squad. |
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 9, 2023 20:08:28 GMT
Chris Hayes on the other site mused in a thought provoking post a while back on what level we might have sunk to had Osborne not been involved. And with the backing of 2,000 fans because eg: a property developer continues not to have a stake in the freehold, in those lower reaches it is not beyond the realms of probability that we wouldn’t be exactly where we are now after a few promotions, minus the debt to Osborne.
It’s a bit like the Trump anomaly re his Dad’s money or so it goes. He would have been worth more had he just sat on Dad’s money with interest rather than the sun total of his subsequent business empire. In our case we would be thinking we were on the up now. But we aren’t. He’s not the Messiah, but dealings with others might suggest to some he is a naughty boy. Trump, that is. Osborne is no doubt an honourable man.
I do not know enough these days as to what you can unlock in terms of additional unique monies when setting up community share issues (ie: on top of that then raised) but I feel confident if still a tenant of the local authority at Plainmoor, we could ride to this current level with the gates we get. Beyond it, tricky.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Oct 9, 2023 20:08:44 GMT
Chris Hayes on the other site mused in a thought provoking post a while back on what level we might have sunk to had Osborne not been involved. And with the backing of 2,000 fans because eg: a property developer continues not to have a stake in the freehold, in those lower reaches, how it might not be beyond the realms of probability that we wouldn’t be exactly where we are now after a few promotions, minus the debt to Osborne.
It’s a bit like the Trump anomaly re his Dad’s money or so it goes. He would have been worth more had he just sat on Dad’s money with interest rather than the sun total of his subsequent business empire. In our case we would be thinking we were on the up now. But we aren’t. He’s not the Messiah, but dealings with others might suggest to some he is a naughty boy. Trump, that is. Osborne is no doubt an honourable man.
I do not know enough these days as to what you can unlock in terms of additional unique monies when setting up community share issues (ie: on top of that then raised by the issue itself - thankfully we have a fan led vehicle that can access that detail for us) but I feel confident if still a tenant of the local authority at Plainmoor as a new limited entity as free of debt to Osborne’s defunct creditor as it could be, we could rise to this current level with the gates we get. The mechanics of that are beyond my comprehension re the technical detail.
To get to above National League South and into the National League again would be the most difficult first leap, where most are nowadays fully professional. However, it isn’t unobtainable with some form of benevolent ownership and sound business model. Why do I think that? The biggest reason is because we managed to do that very thing and stay there throughout the lion’s share of our existence before Clarke Osborne’s £100,000 debt and six years at the helm that has led to us being at this low level in our post 1927 history.I don’t doubt that coming back from where we are would be bloody hard work for a number of people if our own safety net had to be activated.
I do also get frustrated when some hold out a trust has failed when it goes on to sell to another owner, btw. It has succeeded in those circumstances to steady the ship ahead of new investment is a much preferred conclusion from my glass half full and, more realistic I would contend, perspective. And you get a vote on it. Also, while I’m on the moan, the false narrative that ‘the trust is power hungry’ bla bla is so tiresome and innacurate in pretty much all cases and definitely ours that those positing such nonsense tend to be given a wide berth on grounds of near insanity for me, so proposterous it is as a mindset or proposition. At their core, trusts and their democratic model have only ever existed and developed as a result of concern and a desire to help something the fans that make up their memberships love and want to enjoy and see thrive.
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bobgull
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Post by bobgull on Oct 9, 2023 20:54:20 GMT
I don't disagree with your pedantic point bobgull I did say when the club was 'basically'under fan ownership. It was real fans, 10 to start with then quickly reduced to 6, raiding their savings / pension plans to keep the club afloat. Good on them and they all did it with the best intentions. Didn't work though and it was them who had to borrow £100,000 from Mr Osborne to keep the club afloat. And so it all started with Osborne still putting money into the club to keep it afloat. How long for though? I am not anti TUST in any way but it does not change the situation that it is Osborne's money that has kept the club going and the £60,000 War Chest would disappear in the first weeks wages and the lecky bill for the evening midweek fixture! The way ahead? Buggered if I know! 😉⚽️ stefano, if you had read the answers to the FAQs you would see that the Forever Yellow Fund (the war chest) is not intended to run the club (should the need ever arise) but to facilitate saving the club by launching a community share issue and to pay for the necessary legal and financial advice and services. |
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Post by stefano on Oct 9, 2023 21:23:22 GMT
I did read it bobgull and showed no indication in any of my replies that I did not read it. Bored of it now so will not be making any more response to anybody!
I did get that the War Chest (still £40,000 short of the sum borrowed 6 years ago to keep the club going and still not paid back) is to seek financial advice (always do your own divorce if you can now that is sound financial advice from me) and to seek further funding. So basically you spunk the first weeks wages and the lecky bill to try to get money for the first weeks wages and the lecky bill. Best of luck with it and I did mean what I said earlier when I said I have nothing at all against TUST. You can trawl back through any forums/ FB or anywhere and you will find absolutely nothing where I have said anything against TUST.
If you cannot get your head around the obvious fact that Osborne has kept this club going, whatever his motives and I have no idea what they are, then I really cannot help you!
Why the hell should I care anyway I get enjoyable entertaining live sport action at Ivybridge RFC (Tier 5), Plymouth Albion (tier 3), and Exeter RFC (tier 1)? All easier to get to than Plainmoor for me and basically more fun.
If you want to know the difference soccer players spend 90 minutes pretending they are injured whilst rugby union players spend 80 minutes pretending they are not! 😉🏉
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Oct 10, 2023 11:53:16 GMT
This is only my feeling but I think we are where we are because the money is being spent badly. Quite simply GJ has recruited a poor bunch of players with a few exceptions, but those exceptions (Halstead, Lapsie, Jarvis) can't possibly carry the rest of the team who are either not up to scratch or are injury prone. When you have scarce resources you simply cannot afford to have players like Hall, Dawson and dare I say it Moxy in the squad. I'm completely with you on this one, Pete. You only have to look at Reading who have an owner who has spent upwards of £200m since he bought the club in 2017. They are languishing in League One heading for administration/receivership/goodness knows what. There are plenty of other examples of clubs spending unwisely and heading for financial disaster. It's not the amount of money you spend, its the value of what you spend that money on that counts. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Oct 11, 2023 23:50:18 GMT
Yes 6 years ago I believe you are right Rob that the only debt owing was £100,000 to Mr Osborne, but that had been borrowed in the first place as the club had no money to fund the ongoing operation. As Mr Osborne does not like football then surely he would have preferred that somebody else took over the club and paid him back his £100,000. Nobody was interested or indeed able to if they were so he took the club on and since then it is his money that has kept the club surviving. So yes the club would have folded without his money. Mr Osborne lent the money to a very naive board precisely because he did want to take over the club - knowing full well that they would not be able to repay it! He believed at the time that a deal would be done with Gordon Oliver on the freehold. The board needed the money because they had been conned into supporting Dean Edwards' ego trip in a ridiculously under-capitalised venture that was doomed to failure. They then fell under the svengali influence of Pete Masters who persuaded them to try to monetise the freehold rather than listen to the expertise of the FSA - who have huge experience of rescuing basket-case football clubs. The board kept the parlous state of the club's finances secret - repelling all offers of help. They steered the club to within hours of administration, by which time it was Osborne or curtains. So it is true to say that the club would have folded if Osborne had not taken over. However, that situation was totally self-inflicted and we need not have got to that point. I blame Kelvin Thomas, Dean Edwards and Pete Masters above all others. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Oct 11, 2023 23:54:54 GMT
Question - how bad will things have to get before fans start asking for our club back and Osborne to go? I would dearly love the current regime to be far more communicative on an exit strategy, but it would be incredibly naïve to just ask them to pack up and go. A crisis may well come along anyway but any suggestion of a self-inflicted self-destruction would be divisive and counter-productive. |
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Post by tustgull on Oct 12, 2023 8:41:14 GMT
The need for proper communication, meaningful engagement and transparency from the owner and directors has never been more urgent. Sadly, all attempts from TUST to support them in this process have been thwarted, with spurious excuses made as to why this isn't happening.
If the owner has nothing to hide and has a positive plan and strategy for the future of the club,why isn't he sharing it with the supporters?
More and more supporters are questioning the future intentions of the club, and seriously concerned what's happening presently on the pitch too-particularly given the apparent inaction to address the obvious deficiencies.
The rumours, second-guessing and falsehoods will undoubtedly continue to grow, unless the club addresses them meaningfully by engaging and communicating properly with its loyal ,but deeply frustrated fan-base.
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