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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2009 18:23:58 GMT
I'm starting this thread because I really enjoyed Stewart's perceptive posting on the Best Ever XI topic. But, first, my apologies to Stewart for marking him down as a child of the 1960s rather than a little earlier.
I was particularly interested in his comparisons between 1954/55 and 1959/60 and his reference to the changes that were happening to the game at the time. I've always been aware of the 6-3 defeat against Hungary in 1953 and how this was supposed to have started the process of shaking English football out of its torpor. What I've not appreciated is the effect it might have had on lower division football. What was Division 3 (S) like in the decade after the war?
I guess my view has always been a little rose-tinted because of the popularity of football at the time although, of course, there would have been other explanations for the attendances of the day beyond the quality of the play. The 1950s may also look good from a distance because Torquay had so many long-serving players that the names tend to speak for themselves. Were they significant all-time figures or pretty average players who lingered through inertia? In this sense what can be said of Eric Webber who was manager for fourteen years from 1951 to 1965? None of them could be mugs because they had three good, improving seasons - 8th in 1955; 5th in 1956; 2nd in 1957. But then there was rapid decline in 1957/58. Why?
Another thing that interests me is is the reaction towards Div 3 (N) and Div 3 (S) being dropped in favour of national Div 3 and Div 4 in 1958. Was this seen as bad move by supporters or something which represented progess? I've always suspected that fans - especially in the south of the country - were initially sniffy towards a league that involved Workington, Barrow and Gateshead rather than QPR, Norwich and Southampton. Certainly winning promotion so soon must have helped and Stewart seems to suggest the 1960 promotion team was actually a very good one in the context of an improving game.
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Post by stewart on Apr 10, 2009 20:00:07 GMT
Barton, this is just a quick response to the fascinating points you make. There are so many interesting questions raised that I shall now find myself sitting here for hours mulling over them.
However, regarding the sudden decline in 1957/58, I can only surmise that Eric Webber, bitterly disappointed with the outcome of the previous season when he was pipped on the post by Ipswich Town, decided that the time was right to clear the decks and rebuild his team.
I say this because only three players, Harry Smith, Dennis Lewis and Jimmy James, remained as regulars in the team from the previous season. John (JV) Smith, Griff Norman, Ron Shaw, Sam Collins and Don Mills all played only spasmodically (although in fairness it should be said that Mills was very injury-prone), and Tony Collins and Ted Calland had departed the scene.
In these circumstances it is hardly surprising that the "new" team, despite containing Colin Bettany, Larry Baxter, Geoff Cox, Graham Bond, Ernie Pym and the Northcott brothers, really struggled in the season prior to deregionalisation.
Nevertheless, Webber's policy was proved to be spot on two years later by the excellent team which gained the club's first promotion in the Football League.
P.S. I was actually born as "recently" as 1946 but my memories and judgements of the 1950s & 1960s are still far clearer than any I have of anything that has happened since.
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 11, 2009 6:43:14 GMT
I was particularly interested in his comparisons between 1954/55 and 1959/60 and his reference to the changes that were happening to the game at the time. I've always been aware of the 6-3 defeat against Hungary in 1953 and how this was supposed to have started the process of shaking English football out of its torpor. Another thing that interests me is is the reaction towards Div 3 (N) and Div 3 (S) being dropped in favour of national Div 3 and Div 4 in 1958. Was this seen as bad move by supporters or something which represented progress? I've always suspected that fans - especially in the south of the country - were initially sniffy towards a league that involved Workington, Barrow and Gateshead rather than QPR, Norwich and Southampton. You set me thinking back to those times Barty, and how different it was then. You mention the "football revolution" and how it began in 1953...................not in Newton Abbot it didn't. Almost a decade after The Magyars, I was playing my first football on a reclaimed bit of Decoy Clay Mines ~ clumps of almost foot high grass interspersed with sprigs of gorse poking out of itinerant pieces of turf. A massive (for us primary school kids) heavy and greasy full sized real leather ball that was akin to attempting to kick a medicine ball and a "coach" who was in reality our female teacher dressed in trilby hat, trench coat and wellies anxiously glancing at her watch throughout the singular half hour break of freedom from the class room for the week. Hell's bells, my first pair of boots were a throw back to the thirties resplendent in brown leather with wooden block toe caps and leather studs which my old man used to hammer into the soles with nails on his garden shed last! Only size 9 (child's) but weighing a ton. With equipment and facilities like that no wonder we were producing "players" who couldn't trap a bag of cement. I had to wait to get to Newton Abbot Grammar School before I got even the rudiments of proper coaching from a wonderful St Lukes College student teacher called Peter Searle who played at a very good level of football for the College in the Western League and Wycombe Wanderers and Kingstonian in the Isthmian League. I was almost sixteen before I got the benefit of the knowledge imparted by the legendary Don Mills at Newton Spurs, Geoff Cox at Torquay United and Ralph Calland at Brixham United. Now I see my eight year old son expertly coached at Arsenal by top level coaches from the home club as well as guest coaches from other clubs of repute like Ajax and I watch the hundreds and hundreds of local youngsters playing in the local Islington and Camden Leagues from as young as seven years old, with suitably sized footballs on sensibly scaled down pitches; great sufaces and 8-a-side (which enables plenty of space and time on the ball) with four rolling subs. I was sixteen before we could ever get near a game in the ONLY youth competition available to us as kids in the sixties...............the South Devon Minor League, played on Saturday afternoons for under seventeens. No wonder the area hardly produced a decent pro' footballer, and no secret that the only ones who made it in the late fifties were those from the "grittier" parts of Torquay (a Euphemism for Hele Village ) under the tutelage of the Plainmoor professionals, and even that was against all the odds what with the ridiculous state of the local pitches ~ a problem that still exists to the shame of the area to this very day!. I recall too the "guff" that my dad used to come out with that all these "Northern" teams that were coming to Plainmoor for the first times in the late fifties/early sixties were nothing short of "clogging outfits" and how ridiculous it was for them to trawl all the way down to Devon (no motorways then) to pay in front of "tiny" crowds of five or six thousand. Those were the preconceptions of the newly formed Fourth Division and the shock and horror the local populace had to endure of suddenly facing Gateshead, Halifax and Rochdale where once they had the pleasure and thrill of seeing Norwich, Southampton and Nottingham Forest run out at Plainmoor. It was as hard as it is today of giving a big welcome to the likes of Droylsden, Farsley Celtic and Histon; when not so long ago we had Sheffield Wednesday, Hull City and (had we hung on in there) could well have been looking forward to Leeds United today.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 8:46:20 GMT
Thanks to Merse and Stewart for their postings on this thread. I've now got this mental image of a ragged-arsed mini-Merse and a lady in a trilby at Decoy clay works. A re-enactment would keep the Hoppers amused at Buckland tonight. Stewart's recall of the aftermath of missing promotion in 1957 made for fascinating reading and, as Jon pointed out recently, you can find league tables and results from the past at www.torquayunited-mad.co.uk/footydb/loadtmrs.aspI've used that link to hone in the 1959/60 season which Stewart has mentioned in his postings. With nine games to go we beat Walsall, the eventual champions, at Plainmoor in front of over 9,000. That night's league table suggests there may have been some short-lived talk of the championship: League standings at 26th Mar 1960: 1 Walsall 36 53 2 Torquay United 37 50 3 Notts. County 38 48 4 Millwall 39 46 5 Watford 37 43 6 Crystal Palace 38 42 7 Stockport County 39 42 8 Exeter City 38 41
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2009 9:38:18 GMT
No wonder the area hardly produced a decent pro' footballer, and no secret that the only ones who made it in the late fifties were those from the "grittier" parts of Torquay (a Euphemism for Hele Village ) under the tutelage of the Plainmoor professionals, and even that was against all the odds what with the ridiculous state of the local pitches ~ a problem that still exists to the shame of the area to this very day!. Of course those Hele Village lads would have been Barton Junior School pupils and we had old Pop Sanders and the lush turf of Windmill Hill.....
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 11, 2009 9:50:33 GMT
Those I had in mind Barty, were Graham Bond, the Northcott Bros, Ernie Pym and then more latterly the graduates from the Aubry Sawyer inspired Torquay United "A" Team of the early sixties.
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Post by stewart on Apr 11, 2009 11:29:22 GMT
Thanks to Merse and Stewart for their postings on this thread. I've now got this mental image of a ragged-arsed mini-Merse and a lady in a trilby at Decoy clay works. A re-enactment would keep the Hoppers amused at Buckland tonight. Stewart's recall of the aftermath of missing promotion in 1957 made for fascinating reading and, as Jon pointed out recently, you can find league tables and results from the past at www.torquayunited-mad.co.uk/footydb/loadtmrs.aspI've used that link to hone in the 1959/60 season which Stewart has mentioned in his postings. With nine games to go we beat Walsall, the eventual champions, at Plainmoor in front of over 9,000. That night's league table suggests there may have been some short-lived talk of the championship: League standings at 26th Mar 1960: 1 Walsall 36 53 2 Torquay United 37 50 3 Notts. County 38 48 4 Millwall 39 46 5 Watford 37 43 6 Crystal Palace 38 42 7 Stockport County 39 42 8 Exeter City 38 41 After the Walsall game there certainly was, in my mind at least, every expectation that we would go up as champions, however these hopes were dashed by an inexplicable 4-0 defeat in the following match up at Hartlepools United, who had languished at the bottom the whole season. In some ways the climax to that season was very similar to last year in the BSP, when we managed only 13 points from the last 9 games. Had there been 3 points for a win in 1959/60 instead of 2, the run-in records would have been identical. One game which has always stuck in my mind was the 2-2 draw against Millwall at Plainmoor on the Easter Monday. There were injuries to George Northcott, Alan Smith and Ernie Pym, so that Dennis Penford, the left back, played at centre-half and his place was taken by an inside-forward, Jimmy James. An almost unknown youngster from the reserves, Frank Arundel, came in on the left wing. I can still remember the gasp of astonishment from the crowd when he appeared. In those days, of course, long before the existence of squads, there were only a first XI and reserve team, so that occasional "tinkering" was done out of necessity rather than choice. A couple of years later Penford, by then in the reserves, played as an emergency centre-forward against Notts County.
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 11, 2009 12:16:06 GMT
After the Walsall game there certainly was, in my mind at least, every expectation that we would go up as champions, however these hopes were dashed by an inexplicable 4-0 defeat in the following match up at Hartlepools United, who had languished at the bottom the whole season. In some ways the climax to that season was very similar to last year in the BSP, when we managed only 13 points from the last 9 games. Had there been 3 points for a win in 1959/60 instead of 2, the run-in records would have been identical. An almost unknown youngster from the reserves, Frank Arundel, came in on the left wing. I can still remember the gasp of astonishment from the crowd when he appeared. Frank Arundel....................I played against him when he came to Newton Spurs for Tavistock. He couldn't half play a mean jazz number on the piano and the image of him pounding holy shite out of the rickety old joanna in the Rec bar and plumes of dust billowing out of it stays with me to this day forty years after! I was chatting to Kenny Allen last night and the subject of Burton came up. He echoed the same memories as Robin Stubbs did of the end of season "blow up" of the late sixties when he told me how it was the squad of 89 needed only one point from the last three games to win automatic promotion and no matter how hard they tried nothing would go right and they ended up in the play offs..................tension sets in, easy passes become difficult to execute and shots get shanked; the harder they try to get it right the further away it slips.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2009 6:59:04 GMT
The Gulls were in the "cup" and destroyed Northampton Town 7-1 that day and I was hooked for ever, here we are close to fifty years on and I am still gripped by the whistle at kick off time even from 6,000 miles away from Plainmoor. And what a game to start with! All seven goals scored by Torquay-born players.....Graham Bond (3), Ernie Pym (3) and Tommy Northcott. How good were Bond and Pym? Merse remembers these players elsewhere in this thread. For the record the centenary history records that Bond and Tommy Northcott signed from Hele Spurs and Ernie Pym from St Marychurch (Spurs?). All told Bond played 142 first-team games, Pym 307, Tommy Northcott 443 and - lest we forget - George Northcott 172. Between them - including George's two goals - the quartet scored exactly 300 goals for the club (Tommy 150). Graham Bond and George Northcott also made first team appearances for Exeter City whilst Tommy Northcott had five years away at Cardiff and Lincoln (47 league goals at the two clubs) when Cardiff were in the old Division 1 and Lincoln in Division 2. I have a memory of my father routinely insisting that Robin Stubbs was nothing with Tommy Northcott. I'm not sure if that was a widespead view and Stubbsey certainly carried on doing the business after Tommy's last game in 1966. Northcott's final match was actually the promotion decider at Darlington played in front of 16,500. Then, like several other Torquay players of that era, he moved to Bridgwater Town. It would certainly be interesting to hear more about the manner of Tommy's departure from Plainmoor as the centenary history talks of him being "surprisingly released".
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merse
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Post by merse on Apr 12, 2009 7:38:21 GMT
And what a game to start with! How good were Bond and Pym? Merse remembers these players elsewhere in this thread. For the record the centenary history records that Bond and Tommy Northcott signed from Hele Spurs and Ernie Pym from St Marychurch (Spurs?). All told Bond played 142 first-team games, Pym 307, Tommy Northcott 443 and - lest we forget - George Northcott 172. Between them - including George's two goals - the quartet scored exactly 300 goals for the club (Tommy 150). I have a memory of my father routinely insisting that Robin Stubbs was nothing with Tommy Northcott. I'm not sure if that was a widespead view and Stubbsey certainly carried on doing the business after Tommy's last game in 1966. Northcott's final match was actually the promotion decider at Darlington played in front of 16,500. Then, like several other Torquay players of that era, he moved to Bridgwater Town. It would certainly be interesting to hear more about the manner of Tommy's departure from Plainmoor as the centenary history talks of him being "surprisingly released". I was surprised to be reminded of the FACT that Graham Bond played that many first team games. Probably because they were when I was still at Primary School, they don't stick that clearly in my mind although my overriding memory of him was how small he was..............rather in the Danny Stevens mold. In fact I have clearer memories of him as a Bideford player in the really good side they had that reached the First Round of the FA Cup in the mid sixties holding a very good Colchester team to a replay in North Devon following a heroic performance up at Layer Road. They also featured in a rather surreal game at Plainmoor when their Western League visit coincided with the selling of tickets for the forthcoming match with Tottenham Hotspur and a crowd seemingly in the region of eight or nine thousand snaked it's way around the terraces as the game was in progress. Ernie Pym was very good, fast and exciting to watch and reminiscent of Bobby Charlton with his thinning blond hair streaming in the wind behind (or beside) him! He really was too much of a home town boy and should have moved on at his peak to further enhance his career and by the time Eric Webber had been replaced his card was somewhat "marked" as Frank Farrell didn't really seem to rate him as highly using Doug Clarke, Gerry King and midway through the promotion season; Ronnie Barnes in preference. It was the same for Tommy Northcott, who was indeed a perfect foil for Stubbsy ~ another FACT that the great man acknowledges to to this very day. "Old Tom" was a rather curmudgeonly character at the best of times and I don't think his reluctant acceptance of the young Irishman as his new boss sat too easily with the pair of them, so it was no surprise that his Plainmoor days were ended. Bond, Pym and the Northcotts.....................good local talent, and real craftsmen at their profession; and their were others too. Remember Peter Wakeham, Alan Smith (Liverpool born but reared in Torquay) and John Rossiter and to a lesser extent three others who found rather more fame at different sports but nevertheless were fine footballers................. Mike Sangster (tennis) Jeff Tolchard (cricket) and John Evans (bowls) Yes there was indeed talent abounding on those slopey, ropey old pitches of Torquay!
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