Jon
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Post by Jon on Aug 19, 2008 22:41:25 GMT
I think most games are won and lost by whoever manages to control the midfield - we were completely over-run last night.
Thompson and Wroe both had shockers. But to be fair to them, I think that playing both Carlisle and Stevens is a risky strategy. It would work a treat if we can get on the front foot, push them both wide and get them both running at the opposition. I could see that happening in the last twenty or thirty minutes of games.
But usually there will be a battle to be won before that happens. When we need extra help in midfield, I don't think that suits either winger and they both end up just looking useless.
I would prefer to see Hodges start left midfield. He can push out wide and further forward if the game allows, but would be more than happy to be the third midfield battler when needed, leaving one of our three real wingers to have a more attacking brief. We'd have another winger (or maybe two) on the bench.
I always felt that the role Mansell and Hargreaves carried out was vital to our success last season - and yes we were less effective when Mansell moved to RB. It's funny that we had people moaning about their "lack of creativity" and calling for "ball players". They won the battles that allowed us to dominate matches. You've got to win the right to play football - it is very rare to find opposition who will just stand back and let you get on with it.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 20, 2008 2:55:41 GMT
 Ditto Benyon, until he gets down to building himself up he'll continue to cost us possession in three out of four games. This is a tough old league and he just doesn't cut it. I think you're a little harsh to Benyon here. You can't forgive Sills a bad performance because he's not being played to his strengths and in the same breath castigate Benyon for a weak showing I'm not "castigating" Benyon, but pointing out his hopeless physique for this very tough league. Yes, he shows very good balance, yes he can finish and yes again he reads Sills well; but he doesn't possess the physical strength to utilise those capabilities in three out of four games. Only against the less physical sides does he look likely and how often will we be playing the likes of Woking and not yer bog standard BSP grizzlies like Ebbsfleet? |
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 20, 2008 3:13:45 GMT
I think most games are won and lost by whoever manages to control the midfield Thompson and Wroe both had shockers. But to be fair to them, I think that playing both Carlisle and Stevens is a risky strategy. It would work a treat if we can get on the front foot, push them both wide and get them both running at the opposition. I could see that happening in the last twenty or thirty minutes of games. But usually there will be a battle to be won before that happens. When we need extra help in midfield, I don't think that suits either winger and they both end up just looking useless. I would prefer to see Hodges start left midfield. He can push out wide and further forward if the game allows, but would be more than happy to be the third midfield battler when needed, leaving one of our three real wingers to have a more attacking brief. We'd have another winger (or maybe two) on the bench. You've got to win the right to play football - it is very rare to find opposition who will just stand back and let you get on with it. Never truer words spoken on this subject and a simple FACT that so many fail to pick up on. The difference between lineups that set out to "win the right" and ones which then go on to "win the game" and when to make the change are vital components of a coach's armoury. Also, the willingness and ability of the players on the pitch to adhere to those strategies are vital. Getting it to work almost immediately with a side containing so many new faces is very hard and can only be achieved through quality time on the training ground - note the word quality, as opposed to quantity....................nothing was ever achieved by turning training sessions into punishment time. It has to be constructively and patiently worked on in a positive and optimistic manner, otherwise the coach "loses" the dressing room as they say. The trouble at this very crowded and demanding start of the season, is that there is very little time to get out on the training ground and work at it. Most of the time between games is swallowed up by recovering, travelling and returning from games. If you are fortunate enough to see your team gel from the start, you are indeed fortunate and often the difference between gelling or not can be wafer thin. Likewise, sides that do gel quickly can suddenly and inexplicably "lose it" for no apparent reason......................all part of the "fun" of being a football manager and all part of the frustration of being a fan! It is at times such as now in the case of OUR club that the manager really earns his corn and his coaching capabilities are tested to the limit. I suggest everyone concerned just let them get on with it, it's never been any different and never will be! |
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Post by crooky on Aug 21, 2008 15:40:05 GMT
I think most games are won and lost by whoever manages to control the midfield Thompson and Wroe both had shockers. But to be fair to them, I think that playing both Carlisle and Stevens is a risky strategy. It would work a treat if we can get on the front foot, push them both wide and get them both running at the opposition. I could see that happening in the last twenty or thirty minutes of games. But usually there will be a battle to be won before that happens. When we need extra help in midfield, I don't think that suits either winger and they both end up just looking useless. I would prefer to see Hodges start left midfield. He can push out wide and further forward if the game allows, but would be more than happy to be the third midfield battler when needed, leaving one of our three real wingers to have a more attacking brief. We'd have another winger (or maybe two) on the bench. You've got to win the right to play football - it is very rare to find opposition who will just stand back and let you get on with it. Never truer words spoken on this subject and a simple FACT that so many fail to pick up on. The difference between lineups that set out to "win the right" and ones which then go on to "win the game" and when to make the change are vital components of a coach's armoury. Also, the willingness and ability of the players on the pitch to adhere to those strategies are vital. Getting it to work almost immediately with a side containing so many new faces is very hard and can only be achieved through quality time on the training ground - note the word quality, as opposed to quantity....................nothing was ever achieved by turning training sessions into punishment time. It has to be constructively and patiently worked on in a positive and optimistic manner, otherwise the coach "loses" the dressing room as they say. The trouble at this very crowded and demanding start of the season, is that there is very little time to get out on the training ground and work at it. Most of the time between games is swallowed up by recovering, travelling and returning from games. If you are fortunate enough to see your team gel from the start, you are indeed fortunate and often the difference between gelling or not can be wafer thin. Likewise, sides that do gel quickly can suddenly and inexplicably "lose it" for no apparent reason......................all part of the "fun" of being a football manager and all part of the frustration of being a fan! It is at times such as now in the case of OUR club that the manager really earns his corn and his coaching capabilities are tested to the limit. I suggest everyone concerned just let them get on with it, it's never been any different and never will be! Whilst I believe your points on all of the above are valid, I think the point you seem to missing is that we appear to be lacking anybody willing to put their foot on the ball and actually take a second to think about the best passing option. Time and time again in both matches I have seen this season all we appear intent on doing is whacking the thing forward,(in most cases without even looking) even when it the player in possession has plenty of time on the ball. Is a little composure too much to ask for for a professional footballer, no matter what level? |
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 21, 2008 16:19:34 GMT
I think the point you seem to missing is that we appear to be lacking anybody willing to put their foot on the ball and actually take a second to think about the best passing option. Time and time again in both matches I have seen this season all we appear intent on doing is whacking the thing forward,(in most cases without even looking) even when it the player in possession has plenty of time on the ball. Is a little composure too much to ask for for a professional footballer, no matter what level? I've always reckoned players who put their foot on the ball are players with confidence. The two games you and I have watched have both been played in atrocious conditions that render trying to find time on the ball a distant second in priority than the need to keep it simple. Confidence time on the ball too, is a rare commodity at the level we play at and nigh on impossible to attain when your so called supporters are hurling abuse and derision. Abuse and derision that are more a symptom of their own frustration, disappointment and lack of personal discipline then any informed knowledge or experience of just how difficult it can be to strut your stuff when the rain is pouring down, the wind is swirling around; and the opposition big and decidedly ugly! Let's be honest, any person who had an iota of real football knowledge; would (whilst extremely disappointed) show their disappointment in a decent way whilst the majority of these idiots who are vociferously getting on the backs of players, management and now Chief Executive Colin Lee (ref yesterday's Herald Express site) could no more trap a bag of cement than pass a turd if they had to!  * I made an error with my original post and have corrected the incorrect wording rather than obliterate it  |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 21, 2008 16:23:53 GMT
I don't think crooky that asking a professional player to try and pass the ball and also to look who he is passing it to, is much to ask.
I really would not think that anyone who plays football would really be looking just to lump the ball upfield. Surly they would want to try and play the good pass, the clever pass, the most important pass. So one can only think this is how they are being told to play their game.
We saw it for most of last season, If it was not the way the manager wanted it played, it would have been changed by now.
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Post by crooky on Aug 21, 2008 19:00:15 GMT
Thank you Dave. My sentiments entirely. Whilst Merse has made a number of excellent points, especially concerning the booing, unfortunately the activity in the transfer market as well as Buckle's comments about playing a more expansive game during the summer has raised many a supporters' expectations. Of course the weather conditions are going to make a difference into the quality of football, but even when you take that into account you cannot fail but to make worrying comparisons with last seasons hoof ball. Still, early days yet, so benefit of doubt....let's hope for better playing conditions on Saturday.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 21, 2008 19:53:57 GMT
Why is it Merse that those words playing at this level always seen so convenient to defend poor football.
I have watched many a top team of the TV who has played in very bad weather and they still managed to play football. Yes its going to make it harder, rain in your face, the wind holding up your pass, or making it go further than you wanted. But should you not be able to as a pro player, learn how to adjust your play to the conditions.
I also really get annoyed when those words playing at this level can be used to explain away why a team can't find a pass, or even play the game to any basic standards, no at this level it seems you will not have time on the ball and therefore need to hoof it away as fast as possible, how wrong can you be.
Did we not see a team who played football and not hoof ball, win the league last season? did we not watch other teams we played, play football? yes we did so it really has nothing to do with being in this league. We lost out on promotion to a team as hard as it is for me to say, who gave us a lesson on football and they went up and we didn't.
When Ant was at primary school, as I was a milkman in those days, I was always free in the afternoons. So I would help out the sports teacher with the kids football. Not the best player myself, but could trap a ball and could find a pass. Even at their age they worked on it and got the basics correct.
Go and watch some of our best local teams, guess what they try and play football, they don't have a nice flat and excellent playing field to play on, no they have bumps and hills, but still they look for that pass.
There will be times when a long ball can be a good ball, but if that is all you do, you will get found out as we know to our cost last season. How many players in the BSP has played at a higher level? not sure myself but I would guess quite a lot of then have. Is hoof ball the style they played for other teams higher up? I don't think so why are the players we have, who did play higher, playing that style now.
What about Hodges, at Argyle last season, did he play hoofball when he played for them? If he was playing in his proper position at our club, all he would see of the ball, was it sailing over his head. So you see the real point is, we have players who can play football, can make passes, so why are we not playing to the real strengths of these players.
Why are we just pumping the ball up and hoping Sills might get his head on it and if we get lucky Benyon just might shrug off some big defender and get a shot away.Playing football the proper way where you draw a player in to create space for one of your players to receive your pass. is the way to beat teams and entertain the crowd. Play the long ball you will get found out and fans will not want to pay to watch it.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 22, 2008 3:03:00 GMT
I think the point you seem to missing is that we appear to be lacking anybody willing to put their foot on the ball and actually take a second to think about the best passing option. Time and time again in both matches I have seen this season all we appear intent on doing is whacking the thing forward,(in most cases without even looking) even when it the player in possession has plenty of time on the ball. Is a little composure too much to ask for for a professional footballer, no matter what level? I've always reckoned players who put their foot on the ball are players with confidence. The two games you and I have watched have both been played in atrocious conditions that render trying to find time on the ball a distant second in priority than the need to keep it simple. time on the ball too, is a rare commodity at the level we play at and nigh on impossible to attain when your so called supporters are hurling abuse and derision. Abuse and derision that are more a symptom of their own frustration, disappointment and lack of personal discipline then any informed knowledge or experience of just how difficult it can be to strut your stuff when the rain is pouring down, the wind is swirling around; and the opposition big and decidedly ugly! Dave........... seeing as you chose to interpret what I actually posted rather than quote me I have done it for you as well as the original point made by Crooky to which I was responding......... You cannot seriously compare a group of kids having a coaching session with BSP football! My son can control and pass with ease, but he's not got Histon's or Ebbsfleet's "finest" breathing down his neck and all over him like a rash. We're forever hearing this crap about parks footballers can do this and the pro's can't do that..........................so how many parks footballers are where they are through choice then Dave? Newton Abbot are a cut above the average parks team, yet how far adrift where they of Torquay United in pre-season? How easy was it for struggling Elliot Benyon to play against them then? How many goals did he score against them and how many chances has he even had against Histon and Ebbsfleet? There are BSP players (I'll give you two - Danny Stevens and Paulo Vernazza) who were star turns amongst North London kids at nine or ten playing in the early academies of Tottenham and Arsenal. A cut above the rest, just like Dave's wonderful group of school kids. Vernazza even made it all the way into the Arsenal First Team, yet now they are struggling away like the rest to get a foot on the ball in the BSP, to find time and space; just to hold their own against rival opponents who are equally determined to deny them all that. You see the outstanding kids of yesteryear ARE the ones you see out there struggling away as described whilst the ones who couldn't hack it are the ones you claim to see perfecting these fine arts on the slopes of KGV in the South Devon League. It's your naivety and gullibility that leads you to think they are so bad in OUR team and the ones you see in the SDL are so good. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Aug 22, 2008 5:51:16 GMT
Do not have time to reply now, but you missed the point completely and failed to answer why players who have played higher and played FOOTBALL, now only play hoof ball.
Now I do have time to reply.
The reference to the kids was only made, to make the point that those that like to play football, try to improve their skills and learn how to play the game, nothing more or less.
You say
It's your naivety and gullibility that leads you to think they are so bad in OUR team and the ones you see in the SDL are so good.
Where did I say our players were bad? I think you will find on the forum I have made many references to how good the players we have now in our squad are I simply have questioned how they have been set up and what game plan they seem to have been told to play.
You failed to answer my questions about the football that was played by the likes of Aldershot, the fact that they played football and not hoof ball, shows your argument that teams can't play football in the BSP, is just rubbish.
You failed to answer my questions about the players we have at the club now, who played at a higher level, If playing just hoof ball was their natural game.
Yes you would expect a pro side from the BSP to out play Newton Abbot, but that was a game we did play football, not what we seem to have gone back to again now.The only player you refereed to is Stevens(a little one)who some will agree due to his size will at times struggle against many bigger players.
I would suggest It's your naivety and gullibility, to believe that football played the way its was meant to be played, can't be played in the BSP. Why should players not be able to pass the ball and not just lump it, If its because they are BSP players, then If we go up we are going to need to get a whole new side, ones that can pass, because they do in all the other divisions.
Yes you need to earn the right to win any game, but a footballing side who work the ball and out play the other team will most of the time win the game.
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merse
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Post by merse on Aug 23, 2008 22:21:44 GMT
What is the opinion of those who saw him playing right back in pre-season, of Thompson playing there and Mansell being returned to the midfield box to box role he is so good at? I'm sure Hodges (if fit) could do a job at left central defender on Saturday alongside Ellis and to me that would be a balanced defence with Nico at left back. We've got to get rid of the notion that we can get away with playing TWO weaklings in a BSP side so Stevens has to go - he's hopeless playing on the left, no way can he hold the ball up and to me he's just a pint sized novelty act. Ditto Benyon, until he gets down to building himself up he'll continue to cost us possession in three out of four games. Well I wasn't far out with that submission earlier in the week was I? I only got the selection of Ellis over Brough wrong.  |
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Ditto Benyon, until he gets down to building himself up he'll continue to cost us possession in three out of four games. This is a tough old league and he just doesn't cut it. 
