Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 5, 2009 18:43:15 GMT
I have put below a cutting from the Torquay Times dated 25 September 1903. Can Ant please have a go at convincing the SDL to alter their claim to have been founded in 1902? It is beyond any doubt whatsoever that the competition was launched in the 1903/04 season.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 5, 2009 19:12:49 GMT
Jon I will have a chat with Ant about this, yes your cutting seems to prove what you are saying, but why would the SDL not know when it was formed?
Maybe there is some information the SDL have that might explain why they state they were formed in 1902. I'm sure Ant will try and find out and if and when he gets any answers, I will post back on this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 20:52:48 GMT
I've got absolutely no idea of what lies behind the confusion between 1902 and 1903. But - as we've seen from Torquay United's own story - history is sometimes left in the hands of people who are rather cavalier with facts. Say - or write - something wrong once and it can easily be repeated over and over again.
And, as Jon said recently, wouldn't it be great to see a list of league champions over the years?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 5, 2009 21:04:39 GMT
As I said I will have a chat with Ant about this, but if you think about it, the SDL could well have been formed in 1902. It would have taken a bit of setting up and it would have had to wait for the start of the next season before it could run. Well thats what I think could be the explanation
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 6, 2009 13:20:55 GMT
Maybe there is some information the SDL have that might explain why they state they were formed in 1902. I know exactly why the SDL believes it was formed in 1902. Somebody read it in a book and did not question it - exactly the same thing that happened with TUFC and actually the very same book. That Mr Luscombe has a lot to answer for! Luscombe wrote " Mr James Harrison .... was instrumental in founding the Torquay and District League, of which incidentally, I was also the first hon. secretary, in 1902. Mr Harrison gave the league its first trophy which, I believe, is still in existence." At least Mr Luscombe is consistent in being one year early both for the formation of TUFC and of the league. Nobody should really be surprised at a league or a club getting its foundation date wrong. It happens all the time. With the exception of the SDL, all organisations seem to welcome any information on their history and to be happy to correct errors as it is important to get it right. What is disappointing with the SDL is that they have received all the proof they need but have pointedly chosen to ignore it. They obviously put "saving face" above telling the truth. There is no disgrace in admitting you made a mistake but there is disgrace in continuing to peddle a false history knowing it to be wrong.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2009 13:50:43 GMT
Jon your newspaper cutting only states that the Junior Association Football will benefit that season 1903/04 by the formation of the Torquay ans District Junior League.
It does not state clearly if that is when the SDL was set up and as I said it could have been 1902 and it had to wait for the start of the next season to go live.
You have asked why the list of league champions over the years is not on the SDL website. I have asked Ant and he says he is unaware of any records that have been kept. The list of champions are only recorded in the next seasons hand books that are handed out to all the clubs etc in the SDL.
Not sure if these were handed out as far back as 1904, as that would have been the year the first one might have been produced, but it seems the only place to find out the league champions for all the divisions played in the SDL, is in the SDL handbooks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 18:33:49 GMT
it seems the only place to find out the league champions for all the divisions played in the SDL, is in the SDL handbooks. Which is entirely to be expected unless a written history of the SDL has been produced at some stage. Yes, it would be great to see such information on the SDL's website but we have to remember that material of this type only arrives on the web thanks to the goodwill of individuals. I guess a kind soul made made such an effort by putting the list of Herald Cup winners online. As for the date of the league's formation, this history lark isn't easy is it? Not even when it comes to apparently simple matters. I suspect Jon has a point when he says an early historian got things wrong and others followed. This, I fear, is a fact of life when it comes to very localised history. I became aware of something similar more than thirty years ago when I was doing a university dissertation on the growth of Torquay between 1848 and 1892. I quickly noticed that each subsequent history - making up a series written over a span of a hundred years -virtually copied the words of its immediate predecessor. This meant that, not only were mistakes repeated, but also that what each chose to include - or omit - was followed by the next in line. Taking the social history angle - as I was - it was frustrating to learn over and over again about the bloody Duchess of Orleans visiting Torquay in 1857 whilst little was said about contemporary developments affecting the heath, welfare, education or economic prospects of the local population. To criticise Bill Luscombe unduly would be unfair. After all, he was the bloke who showed an interest in the club’s history and put pen to paper. Quite understandably, once he made that effort, others saw him as the “Oracle" or the ”History Man.” If Bill said it had happened, it must have done. The only snag was that, by modern day standards, he wasn’t a particularly good historian and unintentionally – and no doubt in a wholly well-meaning manner – he managed to lead a few people up the garden path. Almost certainly that was due to him relying on memories as opposed to archives. So this is where I must declare respect for the work undertaken by Jon Gibbes and John Lovis over the years. Although I’m always ready to question material - and seek new explanations – I pretty much follow the works of others when presenting my “facts”. In this way I may occasionally be guilty of parroting the mistakes of others. But, with Jon and John, we have to remember they are the people who've sought out the original material needed to tell us the stories we all find so fascinating. All power to them in that respect. Dave, meanwhile, could easily be on to something when he suggests it’s possible the founding meetings of the Torquay and District League (as the SDL was originally known) may have taken place in 1902. That, in the absence of any evidence in front of me, appears entirely feasible. But, if that’s the case, should we use the 1902 founding date? Well, in my opinion, if we were talking about an association – let’s call it the South Devon Football Association – set up to govern football in the area, it would be appropriate to date its foundation as of the first meeting. The same can be said of a football club. But, if we’re talking about a competition, it’s more normal to date its formation from the start of play. So, if the T&DL started playing in the autumn 1903, I’d go with 1903 as its date of formation. Come what may, it would be interesting to learn more of the league’s history. Not just who won what when, but also about its great teams and players and its relative strength over the years. For example, when was it at its very strongest? Here I’m reliant on our centenary history again and the work done by the likes of Jon. His press cutting in this thread shows it was Torquay United Reserves who were amongst the founders of the T&DL (and not the first team who were playing in the East Devon League at the time). The firsts – according to the book – only switched to the T&DL when the EDL went through a rocky spell in 1907. Then – once the Ellacombe merger went ahead in 1910 – the ambitious new Torquay Town quickly headed off in the direction of the Plymouth and District League. Which begs the question of the relative strength (and reputation) over the years of the SDL compared to its Plymouth and Exeter counterparts. I get the impression it was usually in the shadow of those leagues and a few clubs from its "natural" catchment area – Dartmouth, Brixham United and Dawlish amongst them – sometimes opted to play in those leagues in preference. But – even if the SDL was the weakest of the three – there must have been times when it was an incredibly strong league by modern standards. This would have been the case because, until the late 1940s, there were no Devon clubs playing at any level between the district leagues and the Football League. Nor, at that time, could you imagine South Devon-based players nipping out-of-county for their football. Surely in those days players, who would now be appearing at every level from the Conference to the South West Peninsula, would have been doing their stuff either for Torquay United Reserves or in the SDL? This indicates a very high standard at the top end of local football. This state of affairs may have continued until the 1960s when Newton Abbot Spurs made a real stab at the South Western League and local players started to appear for Bideford, Barnstaple and other Western League clubs. Then, once Dawlish and Tiverton joined the Western League in the 1970s (to be followed by other Devon clubs), there would have been a further adverse effect on the quality of district football. Now, since the formation of the Devon League in the early 1990s (and the subsequent establishment of the SWPL), we’ve had up to ten to a dozen South Devon clubs operating at levels above the SDL. I guess this represents the SDL losing a fair chunk of its natural premier division over the years. Put alongside the possibility of the best local players appearing for decent semi-pro clubs throughout the South West and you develop a picture of a very different local football scene to fifty-odd years ago. So what was the SDL like in the 1950s and 1960s?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2009 19:32:21 GMT
Another wonderful and well written post Barton and what I find a bit sad about history is, so much seems to be lost and year’s later people come along to try and piece things together and may at times just try to fill in the gaps.
Not that Jon would just fill in gaps; we know he rightly likes to have all the facts 100% accurate. I think it’s right and proper to say the SDL started in 1903 as that was the first year the new league began, but it should not be forgotten, that the SDL is also a type of organisation.
It has a chairman and all the required officers that it requires to carry out all the duties required to run a league. It is very possible that all the meetings to set up the organisation and elected all the officers took place in 1902. They would have had to have had many meetings to work out the formats, league rules etc. If this was the case then the SDL would in my view be correct to state they were founded in 1902.
I find it sad that so much information seems not to have been saved somewhere, maybe it’s just a sign of the times, as today we have the good old PC and saving data is now second nature to us all. But even back in 1903 paper records would have needed to be made to keep track of the league tables and other information, so you wonder what happened to them all.
Even at our club it seems to me they failed to hold on to many historical documents etc, I’m sure Darryl said that the 50 year old programmes he is putting in our match day programmes this season, were leant to him by someone. If that is the case then it must mean our club does not have those programmes themselves.
You would have thought that even things like programmes would have been kept from the very first game the club ever played and things like the club emblems that get passed over from the other teams captain when the ref calls the two captains together, to toss a coin to sort out what team kicks -off.
I suspect that over the years as the club has had new owners, new directors and chairman’s etc, that many on their leaving took many of these things with them and that is why the club no longer haves much of the historical documents you would expect it to have.
It may well be the case that no one really thought all those years ago that such documents would have any real value in terms of history so many years later, but it could be the case that even someone to do with the SDL did save documents all those years ago, only over time they were lost, destroyed or are still together somewhere.
They could be in a box in some loft, or a family member of one of the founders of the SDL league could have then, who knows one day such papers if they do still exist could find there way out into the open and what a joy that would be for those who truly love history.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2009 20:49:50 GMT
Ant just told me that a man who was very well know, Eddie lee had a great deal of the SDL history in his possession before he died. Ant will try and find out if he can what happened to it and where it might be now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 20:56:15 GMT
Smashing if Ant can find anything, Dave. I hope you're right about somebody having something in a loft. I'm hopeful because I share Jon's opinion that amateur organisations are more likley to take care of their history because (a) it's a labour of love and (b) nobody else will do. what I find a bit sad about history is, so much seems to be lost and year’s later people come along to try and piece things together and may at times just try to fill in the gaps. Years ago when I trained to be a history teacher - which I never ended up doing - they started us off by asking us to solve the mystery of the death of Mark Pullen. This was a 1970s Schools History Project designed to show pupils the importance of gathering evidence in history. Basically you are given items from his wallet and pockets and asked to put together the story. As Jon will confirm that's all a bit different to the old-style TBGS way of learning history but, however sad is the loss of evidence and material, piecing together stories is all part of the fun. I wonder if anybody here ever did Mark Pullen at school?
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 6, 2009 23:00:51 GMT
It has a chairman and all the required officers that it requires to carry out all the duties required to run a league. It is very possible that all the meetings to set up the organisation and elected all the officers took place in 1902. They would have had to have had many meetings to work out the formats, league rules etc. If this was the case then the SDL would in my view be correct to state they were founded in 1902. I think you are clutching at straws here Dave. If you look at any football league, you will see that it gives its foundation date as the year in which fixtures commenced. No league adds on an extra year using the argument that it took a year to set up - and you are only coming up with that argument to justify a date which is clearly wrong. Luscombe refers to the league being in operation during 1902/03 when it absolutely certainly was not. Luscombe is useless with dates - we see that time and time again in his book. People seem to claim that uncovering these details is far more difficult than it is - that everything is shrouded in mystery because it is so long ago and no records remain. Local football was very well reported in the local newspapers of the time and these newspapers are all safely preserved. You only have to look and you will find. The South Devon League WAS founded in 1903.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2009 23:08:53 GMT
Jon you are probably correct, I just trying to give a possible explanation why the SDL claim it was formed in 1902. I think even If ant talked to all those who also form the SDL at this time, he could never convince then to change the date. While I know you like all facts to be correct, I do not really think it matters too much, seeing we are looking at over 100 years ago
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 7, 2009 17:52:03 GMT
Jon I asked last night did it really matter if it was 1902 or 1903, now you know I like you but I have been thinking about this during the day and decided you really have not proved your case. You see I fully agree that the season 1903/04 started under the new banner of the SDL(or what it was called back then) and the SDL knows that as well. Your paper cutting simply states that the J.A Football will benefit by the formation of the SDL, it does not state when the SDL was founded and set up. The only other thing you offer to back up your claims are that a man called "Luscombe" claimed it was 1902 and we was useless at dates as he got another one wrong concerning our club. Did this Mr Luscombe add a year to his age as well ;D So what do you think happened, did the SDL some 50 or so years later after it was FOUNDED, ask how old it was because it did not know? I would find that a bit hard to believe. It would know when the first season started under its banner, so why would it claim it was founded a year earlier, if it had not been. I still maintain it could be the simple case, it was all set up in 1902 and therefore was founded that year and took over running the league at the start of the next season 1903/04 On another note Ant is going to try and get his hands of the papers I talked about yesterday, if he is able to do that,would you be interested in cataloging it all so it could go up on the SDL website?.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Dec 7, 2009 19:57:03 GMT
Jon I asked last night did it really matter if it was 1902 or 1903, now you know I like you but I have been thinking about this during the day and decided you really have not proved your case. You see I fully agree that the season 1903/04 started under the new banner of the SDL(or what it was called back then) and the SDL knows that as well. Your paper cutting simply states that the J.A Football will benefit by the formation of the SDL, it does not state when the SDL was founded and set up. The only other thing you offer to back up your claims are that a man called "Luscombe" claimed it was 1902 and we was useless at dates as he got another one wrong concerning our club. Did this Mr Luscombe add a year to his age as well ;D So what do you think happened, did the SDL some 50 or so years later after it was FOUNDED, ask how old it was because it did not know? I would find that a bit hard to believe. It would know when the first season started under its banner, so why would it claim it was founded a year earlier, if it had not been. I still maintain it could be the simple case, it was all set up in 1902 and therefore was founded that year and took over running the league at the start of the next season 1903/04 On another note Ant is going to try and get his hands of the papers I talked about yesterday, if he is able to do that,would you be interested in cataloging it all so it could go up on the SDL website?. Dave, as I have said before that every league in the world gives its foundation year as the year matches started. You give people too much credit in thinking that they think too much about things. People read a date and quote it - it happens all the time. Did Torquay United put any thought into claiming they were founded in 1898 other than taking Luscombe's word for it? Of course not. If anybody reads that a league was founded in 1902, they will want to know who won that league in 1902/03. You just cannot bring the formation date forward by a year. There is a very obvious answer here. I suppose I may be guilty of referring to Luscombe as if people would know who he was - when possibly only Barton would understand his role in this. W.J. (Bill) Luscombe was a founder member of both TUFC and of the T&DL (later the SDL). He wrote up his memories of TUFC (and the T&DL) in 1948 for the club's 50th (or 49th!) anniversary. His text is fascinating and captures the spirit of the time but is absolutely riddled with factual inaccuracies. As Barton has explained, people took him as "the oracle" and parrotted his mistakes over the years - which include saying TUFC was founded in 1898, the T&DL was founded in 1902 and many many more. I'd be very interested in any history of the SDL that Ant can dig up and would be delighted to catalogue it, but a listing of champions would quite clearly point to the foundation date of 1903 - so I assume it would be suppressed by the dark forces in SDL towers. the ref was the brother of our ex chairman Mervyn Benney
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 9, 2009 12:02:07 GMT
Jon I have been thinking about this again and have worked out where your problem is. You see what you are missing is the fact we are talking about two different events. One is when the SDL took over running the local football league and the other is when the SDL was first founded.
Have you read anywhere that the SDL claimed matches were played under the banner of the SDL in 1902? I don’t believe you have nor do I believe the SDL has ever made that claim. It’s true to say that in the 1903/04 season a new league started and was run by the SDL, so that year is only when the new league started and was not the year the SDL body was founded. There is a difference and as a history man you can’t surely want to write off any information that happened before the first ball was kicked in a game under the SDL banner.
It s like saying on the 24th September 1903(made up date) the SDL was founded just because that might have been the date the new season began that year. Did the SDL all just happen and come together on that date? No it was all set up some time before and that date was only when it went fully active.
There is a big difference between when an organisation is set up and it might take over running a competition and both have their place in history and you can’t just make a claim the SDL has got things wrong, based only on the fact the first season under their banner did not happen until 1903.
About 10 or 11 years ago I applied for a job for a charity based company, the interview was held in a temporary rented office at Heathfield, the project was funded by the National Lottery, but while this company was already set up to plan and get everything in place for what it intended to do, the project never started until some six months later.
I started work in the September of one year and it was May of the next year before the project started. It had a very big launch and the papers will report that the environment will benefit further due to the formation of ********* . What the papers did not say was that we were working and being paid and had been since September of the year before.
That is what I believe was the case for the SDL and therefore it is correct and proper for them to use that year as the date they were founded, the year the league started proper is one year later in the 1903/04 season.
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