rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jun 19, 2010 7:59:29 GMT
Pretty dire last night and at the moment it is the PSF's I am now looking forward to. At least qualification is still in our own hands and a spark is sometimes all it takes to start a good run.
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Jun 19, 2010 8:14:26 GMT
I don't understand Rooney's position this World Cup. For both the Red Debtors and England he has been lining off the front man, playing as a "traditonal Number 10", and attacking the opposition's back four with pace. This was even the case when Red Debtors played with three "front midfelders" and no main striker (Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez) with all three attacking from different directions at pace like Spitfires, constantly confusing "the enemy".
But against both the USA and Algeria he seems to be further forward, often alongside Heskey, and this negates his ability to attack with speed. Has Capello told him to do that or his he just too tired to move about as much, or neither?
Either way the confusion caused by Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard moving quickly towards a defence has been conspicuous by its absence this week since the 4th minute of the USA game.
England are moving too slowly and even then they can't find any space; and Rooney is the clearest example of why this isn't working.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 19, 2010 8:38:00 GMT
Bill Anderson .... what a legend! It wasn't only my surname he had a problem with. Probably because me and Merse joined the club together for the first twenty or so games he called me Alan. He was convinced I was deaf when I didn't respond as he roared instructions from the touchline!!
A couple of favourite memories of Bill was him going into orbit when the boot of the coach was opened at the Devon County Youth Cup final to find that nobody had put the kit on the bus, and of his rotund frame commanding midfield in a South Western League game at Newquay when we were a bit short of players.
I think Merse played in the Newquay game. The programme gave a warm welcome to a young and sporting Newton Spurs team. Then the first two out of the dressing room were Bill Anderson and Alan Garrett with a combined age of a 100, we buckled down and got stuck in, drew 0-0 and got booed off!! Yes, Andy rivalled Jack Charlton and Bobby Robson for his confusion with names. You think you had trouble, what about me sitting on the bench beside him and getting a bollocking for not pushing forward? That final at Okehampton was the first ime in that cup run I got dropped from the team that had got us there and I guess it was a message to me really.....................I lost my midfield place to goalkeeper Bobby Gray who got used up front as "a big nuisance", character forming eh, or was it Andy's problem with names again? Anyway it had it's compensations, I was able to laugh at you lot playing in borrowed green shirts and a variety of underpants AND I didn't get to face a kicking from Peter Darke in the Heavitree side! The game I played in that was the most memorable for having Andy play alongside us was not the Newquay one but one at Wadebridge when "someone" put his name on the team sheet as sub even though we had enough players and then ensured he had to come on by "going down injured" ......................puffing and effing, we thought old Bill was going to have a heart attack as Wadebridge tore us apart on thet great big sloping pitch of their's, despite us also having Ian Twitchin and Don Mills in the side! Did you play in that one Stefano, or were you "away with England" that weekend?
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 19, 2010 9:23:14 GMT
Pretty dire last night and at the moment it is the PSF's I am now looking forward to. At least qualification is still in our own hands and a spark is sometimes all it takes to start a good run. Have "we" qualified for League 2 already then?
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 19, 2010 9:25:36 GMT
Anyway, I'm off to Saltash to see my sister. You want to be careful mate, the locals down there might force you to marry her!
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Rags
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Post by Rags on Jun 19, 2010 10:14:26 GMT
PRIDE, PASSION, DESIRE, are just three things you would think anyone who got the chance to represent their country in any sport would feel. For a football player it would start in the dressing room as he pulled over his head that fresh clean smelling shirt that had ENGLAND on it. Then out onto the pitch and singing the national anthem with PASSION while standing there feeling so PROUD. Then starting the game and showing the DESIRE to win the game that you were so lucky to get the chance to play in because thousands and thousands of men who love playing football would die for the chance you have. I'm sorry to take issue with you on this Dave, but Pride, Passion and Desire won't win a football match. In addition, they are very difficult things to visualise. I remember having an argument with a work colleague who's objection to Sven was that he didn't rant and throw his arms about on the touchline: ie he didn't show any passion. My argument was that ranting and raving wasn't a sign of passion, and also that perhaps the players responded better to calmness from the manager rather than over-emotion. We've hear of the Churchill/Duncan-Smith speech comparison at half-time in the Brazil game and I wonder why any England player would need Churchill in a World Cup QF... I don't know for sure if Rooney, for example, was lacking any of the three: it was very difficult to see and I can't judge by how he played. He always seems to care passionately about England but his performance didn't appear to be that of a player who really cared; but I bet he would tell anyone, very forcefully, that he did care very much. I can also say that, hypothetically of course, were I an England footballer who lined up for my country and didn't sing the National Anthem, I would be VERY angry to hear anyone suggest that I lacked any of pride, passion or desire. But that topic has been discussed before on here and there is no right answer. What does win football matches is concentration, composure, skill, organisation and confidence. All of these were missing last night and their lacking was clearly visible in the way the players performed. Compare Switzerland's performance with England's. I don't know what is to blame, but perhaps it is the Premier League: not so much the number of foreign players but the rewards that the players get. Does winning the World Cup mean as much to Ashley Cole (to pluck one name out of many) as winning the Champions League or buying his new top-of the range unique car? It should, but maybe it doesn't to them.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 19, 2010 10:48:08 GMT
PRIDE, PASSION, DESIRE, are just three things you would think anyone who got the chance to represent their country in any sport would feel. For a football player it would start in the dressing room as he pulled over his head that fresh clean smelling shirt that had ENGLAND on it. Then out onto the pitch and singing the national anthem with PASSION while standing there feeling so PROUD. I'm sorry to take issue with you on this Dave, but Pride, Passion and Desire won't win a football match. I can also say that, hypothetically of course, were I an England footballer who lined up for my country and didn't sing the National Anthem, I would be VERY angry to hear anyone suggest that I lacked any of pride, passion or desire................... What does win football matches is concentration, composure, skill, organisation and confidence. I'm in the second camp on this issue...................the manager especially, needs to maintain an aloofness and concentrated mind, he needs to instil a concentration and focus into the players' minds and the players need to shut out all the pandemonium and emotion of the crowd. Watch the Germans, watch the Italians; they have won eight World Cups between them and that's how they do it. The ultra telented Brazilians are a different kettle of fish, but even they too are now going down that road under Dunga ~ certainly if what I saw of them up close both in training and playing against Ireland back in the Spring is anything to go by. The last thing you want is Wayne Rooney running around like a demented bull with tears of emotion running down his face because he is so proud to wear the shirt, but so wound up by belting out the National Anthem he's forgetting his role in the pattern of play. Sorry Dave, it's just not like that at the top level. The English mentality is best served and best seen when we are backed into a corner with no option but to fight to live. Maybe too many foreign coaches and fellow players have diluted that mentality amongst those remaining Premiership players qualified to play for England amongst the pathetic 49% that are currently contracted to play for the elite clubs in England. As we have shown time and time again during stuttering World Cup Finals Qualifying Groups, the will to stay in the competition and steely resolve to survive does shine through..................eventually. But, more than ever; it will need to be allied to a mental awareness and totally concentrated set of minds tuned in to just who does what in opposition to some very focussed and well drilled opposition. The story of the difficulty that Dom Fabio was having just to get his goalkeeper to retain the instruction to roll the ball out to his nearest defender rather than belt the ruddy thing up the middle during one of the preparation games the other day is indicative of the culture difference and weaker concentration regime endemic in the English mentality when set against the Italian physche...............a mind set planted and grown through the "training camp" culture so long established in Italy where even when teams are playing at home they have to go into camp for a couple of days "concentration" for their club matches. That's whay historically AC Milan manage to prolongue the careers of ageing stars whilst the likes of Ashley Cole and John Terry are rampaging around London town acting in a totally alien fashion to that ultra professionalism. If I were England manager, I wouldn't let characters like them anywhere near the England set up............there are plenty of young, talented and still focussed, dedicated young men perfectly able to fill their places. Sure, it would upset the popular press and idiots like James Corden and his gang of hangers on; but they melt into the ether once the publicity factor diasappears and it's us, the genuine football public of this country; left with the disappointment and anguish for another four years. What goes round, comes round and it seems the further we progress in time; the further our top players drift away from that level of professionalism and allow even those of a lesser ability level to compete on equal or even advantageous terms due to their greater dedication and mental agility.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2010 11:35:48 GMT
I'm sorry to take issue with you on this Dave, but Pride, Passion and Desire won't win a football match. No need to be sorry Rags as the whole point of a discussion forum is so we can all air our views and challenge any we don't agree with, as I have said before its the way we go about doing that, that will ensure we end up with a good enjoyable debate and not another thread ruined because things got out of hand. As in most things in life I can only really base my views on how I believe I would feel myself If I had the chance to play for England, I expect its more than possible there is a whole different mentality from how I believe I would feel to some player who earns more in a week playing for his own club than I could earn working 20 years. I know how proud I would feel and I believe because of that feeling of pride I would have a never say die attitude and would put every ounce of energy, desire and the will to win into my game. Due to the vast sums players do earn playing for the very top teams I wonder if the monetary rewards become the very most important thing to players these days, while I do not have a clue what they get playing for England, its never going to be anything like they get at their own club. I'm not saying I believe this is the case only asking if it is a possibility as due to the very high money these players can demand these days, I feel money is more a driving force that decides and makes up a players mind even what club he will sign for. You go back to the 50's and 60's when players got paid very low wages and it may well have been the case back then it was about how good they could become and trying to improve so they could one day play for their dream team. or their country. I would imagine back then getting picked to play for your country was far more about personal achievement then it is today and I also believe clubs were far more supporting of the England team than they are today. Clubs will want to put their own success before England's and I suppose with the money that is in the game these days that's understandable, but it does not help when it comes to having a good and successful national side.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jun 19, 2010 13:19:47 GMT
Merse I don’t want our players running around with tears in their eyes, but I do firmly believe that passion and pride are strongly linked and do play a big part in any team gaining any success. I do not see any passion from our players last night or any player that looked like he was so proud to be wearing the shirt.
I have watch Johnson on the TV playing for his own club go on great over lapping runs and putting great balls into the box or even creating his own good shooting opportunity. Last night he let players go past him with far too much ease and played so many poor passes. Your Anthony would have put far more into making his pass a good one and one that reached its intend target. There was so much careless passing taking place all over the pitch by far too many players and you have to ask why they could not make passes that even players in the South Devon League would have made.
I know I’m so often guilty of looking at things in far too simplistic ways, but for me a good defender knows where he needs to be on the pitch, a good winger knows how to get past his man and just where he needs to deliver the ball into the box and a good forward knows where he needs to get into the box to get on the end of such balls.
How many times did an England player on the ball look up and saw no real options on? Far too many times and the reason is because players did not want the ball or were not making the runs and creating the space to receive the ball. So the question I ask is why was that the case? Well I’m happy to believe it’s because the players lacked the real passion needed in such an important game and then that leads to the question just why that was so.
I do believe along the way from the days when footballers played for the love of the game to the current times where players are earning silly money for just kicking a ball around, the players have lost some of the passion that players in the past had in abundance.
How good the current English manager is as a coach and manager of the England team will show itself the longer he stays in the job, my point about his English was last night millions of English fans were watching the game in the UK and around the world and when they needed the English manager to give them some answers in the interview that was being conducted, due to his very poor English (not knocking him for that as I can only speak English) he was unable to do that.
Once again I will add how I believe I would feel and not how it might really be, but if I was in the dressing room and he was the one doing all the talking, I do feel attar a time struggling to even understand what he was saying; I would soon find myself switching off.
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 19, 2010 13:57:28 GMT
I said the other day I had never seen Glen Johnson play as well for England as he did against USA, and last night he was (as you say) ponderous, lacking in assertion and positivity..............in a microcosm a perfect reflection of the England team performance as a whole I feel. Even when England played "well" during the qualifying games, there was often a marked difference between the first half mediocrity and second half positivity indicating a certain inability to take training ground preparation onto the pitch without a kick up the arse ~ pathetic. England aren't playing any "wider" than the Dutch in midfield and the Dutch don't even have pace in their starting line up; but what I would say is that in Elias and Allelay they have far more quality and imagination, technique and pace to bring on from the bench than we possess in Wright-Phillips or Joe Cole. but that's what Capello has to work with and he was let down last night by Lennon and particularly Gerrard (again) and Lampard. Rooney peaked far too early this season for Man Utd to allow him to give of his best for England in the World Cup................a familiar problem for English managers given the extreme physical demands of our domestic club football in comparison with other more "cerebral" leagues in other countries. Too much midweek football compared with Italy, Germany and Holland too, we just blunt our talent when we should be sharpening it in preparation for the most important tournament in the world. Anyway, time to settle down for Ghana v The Isle of Wight Australia now!
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Post by ospelgull on Jun 19, 2010 14:29:58 GMT
What a dire performance by the English team yesterday. Their play lacked everything. Bloody millionairs all of them but they can't work out ONE decent flowing attack all night. None of the big players taking the game by it's throat and most worrying no belief at all. If Capello's paid around 8 milion quid (euro?) and his team play like this...
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Post by stefano on Jun 19, 2010 14:45:18 GMT
Bill Anderson .... what a legend! It wasn't only my surname he had a problem with. Probably because me and Merse joined the club together for the first twenty or so games he called me Alan. He was convinced I was deaf when I didn't respond as he roared instructions from the touchline!!
A couple of favourite memories of Bill was him going into orbit when the boot of the coach was opened at the Devon County Youth Cup final to find that nobody had put the kit on the bus, and of his rotund frame commanding midfield in a South Western League game at Newquay when we were a bit short of players.
I think Merse played in the Newquay game. The programme gave a warm welcome to a young and sporting Newton Spurs team. Then the first two out of the dressing room were Bill Anderson and Alan Garrett with a combined age of a 100, we buckled down and got stuck in, drew 0-0 and got booed off!! ......I was able to laugh at you lot playing in borrowed green shirts and a variety of underpants AND I didn't get to face a kicking from Peter Darke in the Heavitree side! The game I played in that was the most memorable for having Andy play alongside us was not the Newquay one but one at Wadebridge when "someone" put his name on the team sheet as sub even though we had enough players and then ensured he had to come on by "going down injured" ......................puffing and effing, we thought old Bill was going to have a heart attack as Wadebridge tore us apart on thet great big sloping pitch of their's, despite us also having Ian Twitchin and Don Mills in the side! Did you play in that one Stefano, or were you "away with England" that weekend? Yes we lost 3-1 and big ex-Gull Reg Wyatt was in the Wadebridge side. It was like marking a giraffe when he came up for corners Peter Darke was a bit of a handfull as you eluded to. Kick anything above the grass would Peter. He was in the Argyle side I played against in the 1969/70 FA Youth Cup. I made sure he didn't get anywhere near me, which took some concentration over three games!! ;D
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Post by stefano on Jun 19, 2010 15:12:41 GMT
News reports revealed that Osama bin Laden has released another video to prove that he is still alive, in which he says that the England football team were shockingly poor in last nights game. Apparently our Security Services have dismissed it and said that it could have been made any time in the last forty years
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Jun 19, 2010 16:19:38 GMT
Anyway, I'm off to Saltash to see my sister. You want to be careful mate, the locals down there might force you to marry her! Back safe and sound thanks Merse - didn't hear a dueling banjo whilst there!
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merse
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Post by merse on Jun 28, 2010 16:33:35 GMT
An irritating and irritable display, Dom Fabio must feel like a piano tuner who can't quite get it right.................... ......................the team collectively looks like a Derby runner who peaked too early to win the The Dante but flops at Epsom.
We've been there so many times with England we're used to it................ These were my thoughts after the first of our group games and it was no different throughout the rest of the tournament. Now Fabio Capello reveals the players were "tired" ~ don't knock him for that, it's not new for an England squad to go into a World Cup in that condition, and if we don't bring in a mid season break for The Premiership we will only carry in that vein. Wayne Rooney's situation clearly illustrated the problem. Man Utd burned him out, failed to rest him when he was carrying that ankle injury and of course he was useless for England and the World Cup campaign. We took Ledley King with his history of unreliability and of course he lasted but 45 minutes. For King read Kevin Keegan, Brian Robson,and David Beckham of similar gambles that backfired. Do we learn anything from the past? Not on this evidence. When we got hammered by the Hungarians at Wembley in the fifties what did we do? We modernised our kit, our footwear and brought in lighter footballs. We played 4-2-4 and 4-3-3; but did we reappraise the way we treat kids from the time they should be learning the game from scratch? Did we hell. When I was a kid I never played club youth football until I was an under 15 in an under 17 league................no-one did, no-one could. There was no thought nor concession to teaching kids how to command a football at the age of 5. At Grammar School all we got was the Spring term of January to the end of March for football; the school sports pitch got wrecked from playing rugby in the rain of November and December and wasn't fit to keep hippos on...............games would be called off for weeks at a time. When I was at Primary school, all we got was a kick around on a piece of wasteland in ankle length grass with a full sized football that came up to our knees. Unless it was a nice day that would be arbitarily cancelled by the headmistress and music lessons substituted. Is it any wonder we have never emulated the Germans and the Dutch? Nowadays we have sensible, tailor made coaching schemes now that youth football has been taken away from the schools and their idiot teachers and kids can get football coaching from qualified coaches in specially adapted environments to suit their tender age and small stature. A lot has been done and put in place to right the wrongs from the past and yet at the very highest level our Premiership clubs continue to sabotage all the effort and thought that is put into it through their selfish self interest and naked greed. That's the subject that needs to be addressed, these players in a very poor and technically deficient England squad are the product of that self interest and greed...................nothing more, nothing less!
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