Post by Dave on Sept 20, 2008 6:37:13 GMT
Well what great posts we had on Tuesday and Wednesday and once again so hard to pick a winner. Merse as good as ever and Buster made a post that would win most weeks.
I got It down to two again and can't pick one over the other, so Its only fair to have two winners this week.
So the winners are
andygulls and Enzo
andygulls Post
Merse
Surely the fact that many of us have moved away from Torbay (and Newton Abbot) is one of the problems with the lack of crowds and passion.
I first moved away to London and then returned more locally, but not back to "the Bay". A large number, like you, move away on a more permanent basis. Many people who move into the bay area have no connection with Torquay United and many will be unlikely to develop an attraction to or affinity for, what has historically been a pretty poor team and club. It would not be a stretch to say that the club may have been undeserving of support at times over the last 20 odd years.
In addition many of us, like you, have other responsibilities and indeed pleasures to occupy us rather than a football club that has lost "Football League" status - and yes that is still a big thing for many whatever your well reasoned arguments might seek to assert.
I cannot recall when you moved away, but even my rose tinted memories of Plainmoor in the seventies cannot mask attendances below 2000 and a virtually empty ground of a cold winters night witnessing, at times, some fairly insipid football (although the memory perhaps sometimes plays tricks regarding the quality of the play). The current malaise is nothing new. It has been a feature of the club for nearly as long as I have been attending Plainmoor.
This weekend saw the publication of statistics indicating that many parts of Devon were the least affordable in which to live in this country. As you point out the salary rewards tend to be lower than those available elsewhere yet the costs are often higher. Personally it's a matter of choice. I happen to love living where I do now, in the country free of excessive noise and traffic. In a village community where people talk to each other in the roads and lanes. Wave at each other when driving past someone you recognise walking a dog. The price I pay is less disposable income, so I do not get to the number of away games I might prefer, less access to headline sport, shows and concerts. But for me the price is well worth paying.
Many people, that have stood in the same area of the ground as I, have been gradually worn down over the years. The rare pleasures of success insufficient to make up for the successive decline. Last seasons ultimate failure and desolate disappointment the final straw. Weighing that up I cannot blame a single one of them for deciding not to attend any longer, particularly in the light of some pretty awful home performances.
Our new board have made a great commitment, but to change the culture and attitude to TUFC will demand consistent effort over many years AND most importantly a measure of success. At the same time existing supporters need to be encouraged to continue to attend.
I am afraid that some of your posts can be perceived as being overly critical of local supporters and given your connections and alignment with key parties may have an increased negative impact. It's not about implication it is about perception and anyone who has had the slightest responsibility for management or leadership will understand that how one is perceived can be very different from the way one imagines they ought to be perceived.
In amongst all your bluster and wind ups are some very astute observations and some very well constructed reasoning and argument. It would be a great shame if you so annoyed some on relatively minor issues that they ignore or miss some of the pearls of your wisdom
Enzo's Post
Are you not looking too deeply into this? Is there really an orchestrated campaign to get Buckle out? Does there have to be an agenda?............. or is it just a growing amount of previously dedicated fans who have began to question and grow disillusioned with the tactical astuteness and recruitment policy of Paul Buckle. You had concerns about Leroy's management - did you raise them, pointing out your frustrations and fears? ..............or did you orchestrate a campaign to get Leroy out. Did you have an agenda.......or were you just growing increasingly frustrated with the direction of the club you hold dear? All people are doing is venting their frustration - such discussions used to take place between mates in the pub or on the way home from a game - In this internet age it is to be expected that such things are raised on websites. Fickle, short term minded football fans are nothing new. I have seen people say they have been 'sickened' and 'horrified' by a perceived campaign with an agenda. Is it half term in journalism school or something?? If something is crap over a period of time, more and more people will start saying that it is crap. In many games this season we have been crap - No campaign, just honest and frustrated fans saying it how they see it.
Nobody is perfect and however decent a prospect Paul Buckle is, the bottom line is that he has not produced the expected goods for some time now - no Torquay fan with any experience will expect too much from a season, but the truth is if Buckle loses his job in the next month or so he will have no agenda to blame, no campaign - just the fact that he has failed to produce the required standard over a fairly lengthy (in football terms) period. He has produced a style of play that has turned off even fans like myself who are only concerned in the result - I don't care how it is achieved. Not all fans have this approach and Torquay fans are no different to many other clubs - if the product is poor they will not part with their money. Paul Buckle has far more culpability for dwindling crowds than any agenda driven campaign. After performnces against Ebbsfleet, Histon, Crawley and Kiddie, along with the unfortunate messing around with our fixture dates no fan should be critisised for walking away. Fans pay their money and take their choice........many are now choosing something else. In the past TUFC has been accused of taking fans for granted - nobody can expect people to watch what has been served up so far this season and continue to turn up week in, week out. Believe me, if someone like me thinks like this, there will be the floating fans who could live on Marnham Road and still wouldn't be arsed to go.
I will support Buckle and hope he can turn things around. He is on a steep learning curve as a manager and deserves a little more time. You must accept that Buckle has made some shocking decisions in the last 6 months or so - all fans are doing is questioning why. If he continues to make the same mistakes over and over again then the Board will be forced to act as fans will continue to drift away.
I got It down to two again and can't pick one over the other, so Its only fair to have two winners this week.
So the winners are
andygulls and Enzo
andygulls Post
Merse
Surely the fact that many of us have moved away from Torbay (and Newton Abbot) is one of the problems with the lack of crowds and passion.
I first moved away to London and then returned more locally, but not back to "the Bay". A large number, like you, move away on a more permanent basis. Many people who move into the bay area have no connection with Torquay United and many will be unlikely to develop an attraction to or affinity for, what has historically been a pretty poor team and club. It would not be a stretch to say that the club may have been undeserving of support at times over the last 20 odd years.
In addition many of us, like you, have other responsibilities and indeed pleasures to occupy us rather than a football club that has lost "Football League" status - and yes that is still a big thing for many whatever your well reasoned arguments might seek to assert.
I cannot recall when you moved away, but even my rose tinted memories of Plainmoor in the seventies cannot mask attendances below 2000 and a virtually empty ground of a cold winters night witnessing, at times, some fairly insipid football (although the memory perhaps sometimes plays tricks regarding the quality of the play). The current malaise is nothing new. It has been a feature of the club for nearly as long as I have been attending Plainmoor.
This weekend saw the publication of statistics indicating that many parts of Devon were the least affordable in which to live in this country. As you point out the salary rewards tend to be lower than those available elsewhere yet the costs are often higher. Personally it's a matter of choice. I happen to love living where I do now, in the country free of excessive noise and traffic. In a village community where people talk to each other in the roads and lanes. Wave at each other when driving past someone you recognise walking a dog. The price I pay is less disposable income, so I do not get to the number of away games I might prefer, less access to headline sport, shows and concerts. But for me the price is well worth paying.
Many people, that have stood in the same area of the ground as I, have been gradually worn down over the years. The rare pleasures of success insufficient to make up for the successive decline. Last seasons ultimate failure and desolate disappointment the final straw. Weighing that up I cannot blame a single one of them for deciding not to attend any longer, particularly in the light of some pretty awful home performances.
Our new board have made a great commitment, but to change the culture and attitude to TUFC will demand consistent effort over many years AND most importantly a measure of success. At the same time existing supporters need to be encouraged to continue to attend.
I am afraid that some of your posts can be perceived as being overly critical of local supporters and given your connections and alignment with key parties may have an increased negative impact. It's not about implication it is about perception and anyone who has had the slightest responsibility for management or leadership will understand that how one is perceived can be very different from the way one imagines they ought to be perceived.
In amongst all your bluster and wind ups are some very astute observations and some very well constructed reasoning and argument. It would be a great shame if you so annoyed some on relatively minor issues that they ignore or miss some of the pearls of your wisdom
Enzo's Post
Are you not looking too deeply into this? Is there really an orchestrated campaign to get Buckle out? Does there have to be an agenda?............. or is it just a growing amount of previously dedicated fans who have began to question and grow disillusioned with the tactical astuteness and recruitment policy of Paul Buckle. You had concerns about Leroy's management - did you raise them, pointing out your frustrations and fears? ..............or did you orchestrate a campaign to get Leroy out. Did you have an agenda.......or were you just growing increasingly frustrated with the direction of the club you hold dear? All people are doing is venting their frustration - such discussions used to take place between mates in the pub or on the way home from a game - In this internet age it is to be expected that such things are raised on websites. Fickle, short term minded football fans are nothing new. I have seen people say they have been 'sickened' and 'horrified' by a perceived campaign with an agenda. Is it half term in journalism school or something?? If something is crap over a period of time, more and more people will start saying that it is crap. In many games this season we have been crap - No campaign, just honest and frustrated fans saying it how they see it.
Nobody is perfect and however decent a prospect Paul Buckle is, the bottom line is that he has not produced the expected goods for some time now - no Torquay fan with any experience will expect too much from a season, but the truth is if Buckle loses his job in the next month or so he will have no agenda to blame, no campaign - just the fact that he has failed to produce the required standard over a fairly lengthy (in football terms) period. He has produced a style of play that has turned off even fans like myself who are only concerned in the result - I don't care how it is achieved. Not all fans have this approach and Torquay fans are no different to many other clubs - if the product is poor they will not part with their money. Paul Buckle has far more culpability for dwindling crowds than any agenda driven campaign. After performnces against Ebbsfleet, Histon, Crawley and Kiddie, along with the unfortunate messing around with our fixture dates no fan should be critisised for walking away. Fans pay their money and take their choice........many are now choosing something else. In the past TUFC has been accused of taking fans for granted - nobody can expect people to watch what has been served up so far this season and continue to turn up week in, week out. Believe me, if someone like me thinks like this, there will be the floating fans who could live on Marnham Road and still wouldn't be arsed to go.
I will support Buckle and hope he can turn things around. He is on a steep learning curve as a manager and deserves a little more time. You must accept that Buckle has made some shocking decisions in the last 6 months or so - all fans are doing is questioning why. If he continues to make the same mistakes over and over again then the Board will be forced to act as fans will continue to drift away.
As they're both replying to me, I'll be claiming two assists then! 