Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2010 10:05:49 GMT
Among all the discussion about who holds the record number of appearances which now seems to be agreed at Dennis Lewis 473 and Kevin Hill 474, I have heard no mention of the question of substitutes. When Lewis was playing there were no such things - he played 473 FULL games.
Aug 24, 2010 23:27:39 GMT Jon said:
The top three in the "starts" list is Lewis, Northcott and Shaw. Add in sub appearances and Hilly goes top if you count all games, and second to Lewis in league games. I can't begrudge Hilly the "all apppearances" record as he is such a great character - and I suppose loyalty has been a much rarer commodity in his time than in Lewis's.There was discussion - on another forum (given this one wasn’t in existence at the time) – regarding the question of substitutes as Hilly approached his 474th appearance in 2008. As Powles1 says, Dennis Lewis was never a substitute nor – I might add - did he ever have the opportunity to be substituted. Barring him leaving the field due to injury on occasions (I imagine we have no record of this), his “minutes on the pitch” tally would be close to the maximum 473 x 90.
The discussion also touched on there being no real squad system at the time as well as the simple fact that there are now more games of football played than in the 1940s and 1950s. Dennis Lewis could only ever play in Football League and FA Cup matches. Kevin Hill was also able to play in play-offs; the League Cup (+ Setanta Shield) and an additional cup competition (the current Johnstone Paints Trophy or the FA Trophy).
At the time I think we were, quite correctly, happy to pay tributes to both players recalling they were at Plainmoor for similar lengths of time but in rather different eras: Lewis for twelve seasons; Hill for eleven. On that basis you can make the calculation Lewis averaged thirty-nine appearances a season; Hill forty-three. But, when you look at the “extra” games available to Hill, you can roughly conclude that Lewis may have had the opportunity of an additional forty matches between 1947 and 1959.
With respect to League appearances, it’s worth remembering we only played forty-two fixtures in each of Lewis’s first three seasons with the club. Other than that, because Lewis was such as regular, it’s hard to conjure too many additional appearances he may have made had substitutions been permitted (his only “light” seasons were his fourth and his final). Nor, of course, do we know if some of his “full” appearances would have been “sub” appearances in other circumstances. So, for the sake of argument, let’s assume Lewis would have made around 525 appearances (including substitutes) in all competitions should we apply the rules of engagement from Hill’s era (equating to 43/44 games a season).
But, of course, it’s not as simple as that. In a squad system Lewis may have been rested for certain games (or used as a substitute), just as there would have been occasions when his fitness wouldn’t have been risked in such a way as it was during the 1950s. I’d also hazard a guess that tactical formations weren’t varied as much between games in Lewis’s day meaning the likelihood of him being dropped in such circumstances would have been less than Hill’s.
My first instinct was to give the proverbial “nod” to Lewis on the grounds of what actually happened. Factor in the differences between the eras and it becomes closer. Indeed, I’d love to know about Dennis Lewis’s qualities as a player. We know how some long-serving players (at all manner of clubs) are actually pretty average but remain at clubs because they do a job and the offers don’t come from elsewhere. Was Dennis Lewis in this solid, dependable but not outstanding category? Or was he a stand-out player who was regularly coveted by other clubs? In getting that answer we may be able to make further comparisons between the careers of two players. I've a hunch there's an interesting non-statistical argument lurking for those with long memories!