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Post by buster on Oct 26, 2008 11:23:17 GMT
Apologies if already covered, but does anyone think we should be concerned about overuse of key players such as Hargreaves & Sills etc?
Last season PB was reluctant to do subs until very late in the game or even not at all. With result by January we had run out of gas. Its very difficult getting the right balance. You want to keep the good run going and when games are finely balanced you feel you can`t aford to take players off. But if they are not rested could we struggle in the run in?
buster
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Post by pikeygull on Oct 26, 2008 12:14:07 GMT
I agree with what you are saying , but we only have 2 midweek games before Christmas. In that run you can include a Setanta Sheild game and a Trophy game aswell. I think with this slightly relaxed schedule of 1 game per week the key players can cope.
I think Sills looks very jaded this season so far, wether Buckle will rest these key players in the sheild or (draw pending) throphy matches we will see.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Oct 26, 2008 12:43:51 GMT
Although I think there was initially an opportunity to rest a couple a players today, Buckle was justified in playing a strong line up due to injuries to Carlisle and Robertson. ( Imagine if Chipstead had scored again at 2 -1 with players on the bench.) Having said that, I thought Carayol came in and did a good job today on the right wing setting up three of the goals including two at the death with strong running.
Undoubtedly this is an issue that will occur after Christmas with just one more win in the FA Cup could result in the start of fixtures being postponed. I suspect that Buckle will do what he did last year and utilise the squad in full for the Setanta Shield and maybe at this point other players will then be able to push for a place!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2008 19:00:57 GMT
I think most Of us felt last season, that Bucks just wanted to keep his favorites playing, no matter what. Some felt that come the end Of the season many players were simply worn out and this also played apart, In the team not winning promotion.
My view was that I did agree that some players seemed to be picked, no matter what their form Or fitness and changes Or substitutions, were not made when they should have been.
I would hope apart from many Other lessons Bucks would have had to learn, after his first season, was the need to pick a team, based purely on form and fitness.
Sean once said that Bucks be dammed If he does and dammed If he doesn't and he Is 100% correct In what he says.So Bucks decides to rest a key player and then lose the game, fans will blame the fact that the player was rested. keep the player In when its clear he Is not really up to the game and lose again, Bucks will also get the blame for that, yet again.
I really find It hard to believe that fit and trained professional footballers, should not be able to play a whole season Of football.The game Is only one and a half hours long, once a week and sometimes twice a week.Look at any tennis match On TV, sorry but I think the demands On a tennis player In a big game, that could last hours, Is far greater that a football player.
During a football game the player gets plenty Of rest time, say when the ball Is up the other end Of the pitch, a tennis player has to work non stop during his game.
I also believe football players have a big part to play In this, as they know how fit they are. Yes they may want to play every game and some will tell the boss, they are fit and ready, when they may not be. Doing so when not really fit, will weaken any team and I'm sure most players would not want to harm the teams chances, by being the weakest link.
The FA cup, we should have the strongest and best team out on the park, the same for all league games, but the other cups that really do not mean that much, should be the time the main players are rested. We also need to get more games for the players who are not making the team, friendlies etc, they need to be match ready and match sharp, so when they may be needed, they can come straight In and do a job.
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Oct 26, 2008 19:43:49 GMT
Is Brough carrying an injury or is it really a case that he is now behind 3 youth players in the push for first team action?
Shame we didn't hold that 2 goal lead (or increase it to 3). Young Charran really impressed me when he came-on, he didn't look like some of the striplings that we had from the last output of our previous youth team (although in League 1 they didn't really stand a chance) and showed some good awareness.
With regards to the FA Trophy - we did financially very well last season (as well as the prestige of appearing in a Wembley final - even if it was an anti-climax). I don't think that we can afford to do anything but go 100% to win this competition with the team that Bucks thinks has the best chance of winning.
Dave R - I think that it is a tad of a misrepresentation to say that a match is only one and a half hours as being the sole draining factor of a player - players in the premiershi£ are dangled carrots to retire from international football because of the reduction of the longevity of a career that the extra 8 or 9 matches a season will bring. Although it isn't exactly the same as playing at Conference level, the concept of playing fewer games over the core league games is something that I imagine most managers entertain. Reading the excellent Chris Hargreaves blog (talking about the physio at AC Milan) really gives an insight into conditioning and physiological requirements of a footballer. Players perhaps need "weeks off", possibly from the psychological pressure of the match environment as well as the physical? Talking of which, do we still have Stuart Bruce-Lowe involved in the dietetics and monitoring of players hydration and sugar levels? I believe that Simon Harling's involvement when we got promotion in 93/94 was vital.
Perhaps the Setanta Shield is the competition to try fringe players from the start. I wouldn't be hugely disappointed if we got knocked-out of that, although I think that we have a duty not to put-out "cannon fodder" as it doesn't serve the players that do appear any favours in terms of morale / confidence (eg Yeoman & Charran to play along other fringe players - maybe start them in a strong team?) as we found-out last season.
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merse
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Post by merse on Oct 26, 2008 19:46:59 GMT
I really find It hard to believe that fit and trained professional footballers, should not be able to play a whole season Of football.The game Is only one and a half hours long, once a week and sometimes twice a week.Look at any tennis match On TV, sorry but I think the demands On a tennis player In a big game, that could last hours, Is far greater that a football player. During a football game the player gets plenty Of rest time, say when the ball Is up the other end Of the pitch, a tennis player has to work non stop during his game. I also believe football players have a big part to play In this, as they know how fit they are. Yes they may want to play every game and some will tell the boss, they are fit and ready, when they may not be. Doing so when not really fit, will weaken any team and I'm sure most players would not want to harm the teams chances, by being the weakest link. All sports make different demands on individuals and in my opinion it is both impossible and unfair to make comparison between individuals in those different sports. Whilst tennis players don't have to face getting lumps kicked out of them, neither do footballers have to apply the incessent mental agility and concentration that most solo sportsmen are required to give. Mental application is exhausting...............ask any professional goalkeeper who will come off the field just as tired as his team mates. But then having physical confrontation with opponents is equally wearing in a different way. Some of the fittest amateur sportsmen I came across were my fellow cycling club members who left me ruminating, how whilst you could get away with a Hackney Marsh Sunday League game after a night on the town; you certainly couldn't hack even the most modest Essex League Road Race without the most stringent of training regimes and social sacrifices. You might be surprised too, at the training regime I used to follow when I was refereeing...................and to see most of those guys these days leaves me perfectly aware how much fitter THEY are than I ever was! Football has moved on a lot since you and I played it Dave, players at ALL levels would leave us dead for pace. Meeting Johann Cruyff the other day lead me to recall his famous "Cruyff Turn" - he was almost alone in the world being able to do that then back in the seventies. Now when I watch my seven year old being coached, both he and most of his mates can do that - no problem. When I tried it the other night, there was an ominous "crack" and now I'm feeling the effects My little boy does things with a ball that I never dreamed of, and I in return hope and pray that he never dreams of doing some of the things I did The main reason so many players "burn out" now before the season is over isn't through lack of fitness, it's because of the ever increasing demands on their minds and bodies. Equally, professional clubs (and even non professional) have invested a lot in knowledge, equipment and attitude towards the avoidance of physical deterioration and that is why we often see players being substituted well before the end of a match..............those responsible know far more about the individual, what injury he may be carrying or might be susceptible to than the "terrace expert" berating him for being soft.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2008 19:56:19 GMT
ohtobeatplainmoor, firstly I have to agree with you about young Charran. He looked big and strong for his age and In the short time he was on, he made a real impact.
I really believe he Is one for the future and he could well move on to much higher things and could earn the club good money, as I'm sure clubs will In time come In for him.
I know there Is much more than just playing a game for 90 Min's and there are other demands On the players body's and physical condition, but I still feel that a good fit pro, should be able to last a season with no real problems. Other sports make more demands on the person taking part and they all seem to cope.
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Post by ohtobeatplainmoor on Oct 26, 2008 20:29:32 GMT
Perhaps they make more demands in some ways than football - I certainly agree that many of the sprinters, marathon runners, boxers, rowers, weight-lifters amongst many other sports have their own demands, but look at the demands of running on very wet grass / mud, turning your body (and the effects that has on your joints, muscles and tendons). It's about being ""fit for purpose" and I think that each sport has it's own recovery periods and conditioning requirements. **EDIT** - I failed to spot Merse's post before I wrote the above! Yep, agree with that. The problem is how to pick a side that rests key players at the right time without exposing the team to the risk of losing momentum. One of the many tough choices that faces a managerr when he is chosing his matchday 16.
Anyway - with regards to Charran, I think he is a real advert for the likes of me to attend some youth team matches. To think that about 5 years ago we abolished our set-up. It didn't feel like a shame to me at the time because we simply were not producing the sort of talent that we had done before (and certainly nothing like the more bankable players that we picked-up for free from other clubs after that club had made the investment in developing). It's always impossible to say for sure where the problem lay, but I felt that it down to the "cut-back culture" of our club's ownership at the time. There have been some people critical of Paul Compton in his time at TUFC, but he produced some great young players for a club of our level - if only we could lure John James back as well!!! To expect too much of the new young talent would be unfair - but I'm sure that Compo, Matt Williams and Robbie Herrera will produce some talent that we can be proud of, although I do fear that the financial setback that losing the sponsorship (for whatever reason) could stunt the growth of the programme.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 26, 2008 20:58:31 GMT
ohtobeatplainmoor, you and Merse have made very some very good points and I do agree with your views On the extra things footballers have to deal with.
I think without a new sponsor, keeping the youth set up going may prove impossible and It would be a real shame, because as you say, it looks like this set up will produce some good players.
I failed to understand why some were unhappy about Compton returning to run the youth set up, he has a great track record and has always got results.
John James was a very big lose to us and I always talked to him when he worked for the club. He lived on the Maldon Road In Paignton and yes I was his milkman. I never really knew the reasons we went down the road, was it money? or Bateson, who knows, but I would not expect him ever to return.
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tufc01
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Post by tufc01 on Oct 26, 2008 21:20:33 GMT
There have been some people critical of Paul Compton in his time at TUFC, [glow=yellow,2,300]but he produced some great young players for a club of our level [/glow]- if only we could lure John James back as well!!! To expect too much of the new young talent would be unfair - but I'm sure that Compo, Matt Williams and Robbie Herrera will produce some talent that we can be proud of, although I do fear that the financial setback that losing the sponsorship (for whatever reason) could stunt the growth of the programme. I believe he already has a good reputation for spotting/producing young talent. Did he also not achieve success doing this at Cardiff??? I'm glad someone else has mentioned the young lad Charran. I know he was only on for 5 minutes, against a tiring team who were already beaten, but i thought he looked the part. Has a good physique , looked confident and although he only had possession 3 times, he took players on and had the vision to look up and square it to Benyon, although given a few more minutes on the pitch i think he would have taken the shot himself. I agree with an earlier post about now wanting to take in some youth games. The Youth set up appears to be working already, with some promising youngsters starting to come to the fore. It would be a shame if this was to be derailed due to some fall out/disagreement/squabbling/whatever.
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Post by stuartB on Oct 26, 2008 21:46:06 GMT
I know it was from a different era but I regularly met a guy called Dudley Tyler who was a sales manager for one of my suppliers. I had many a long chat, not about work, but about his days at Hereford and West Ham.
he played in the Famous Hereford v Newcastle game as non-league but set a transfer record at the time when he went to West Ham. He later returned to Hereford.
the year of the famous game, he played 72 games that season and this lot moan about 40 odd!!
He is a true gent and unfortunately has retired now, so i don't get to see him.
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merse
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Post by merse on Oct 27, 2008 3:43:13 GMT
Dudley Tyler came from an era where stamina counted for much more over explosive pace,than ever it does now. Hereford's pitch was (and still is) a huge, strength sapping and sloping mud patch that you wouldn't have kept hippos on and was made for Dudley's light frame and delicate balance added to reasonable pace. I say reasonable, because there are not many like him in the pro' game today and those that you do see, are usually consigned to the lower reaches because they do lack that explosiveness that is far better accommodated on the superior playing surfaces of today. So where maybe, someone like Rodney Jack would have struggled to get a game at Edgar Street in the sixties and seventies; so Dudley Tyler might well have struggled to get picked in preference to him in a later age. It's really a case of "Cometh The Hour, Cometh The Man"; "Horses For Courses" - whatever you wish to call it. Just as Red Rum wouldn't have won this year's Derby, neither would a Derby winner get over the first fence at Aintree. John Impey's pragmatic view of defending appeals to those who like their defenders big and strong, where as coaches like Johann Cruyff prefer (and demand) players with more creativity and vision in that position that Bucks was trying to see how far he could go at BSP level earlier in the season. Don't say "oh but he should have sorted that in pre-season" It's a lot easier to play that sort of way in a pre-season game than in the combat zone of a BSP game with points, bonus money and league position at stake. Another example (just like modern day v old days demands,and DudleyTyler v Rodney Jack) of the times we live in invalidating much of the argument of one school of thought over another.
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