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Post by leicester on Jan 25, 2012 13:59:07 GMT
A first visit from an outsider....
I've posted the following query on the fhsr site, and been kindly redirected here by a fellow user. Hope someone can help....
I'm currently exercised by the identity of an inside-forward from the Gulls' first professional season, 1921/2, named Mortimer, and would love to know anything more about him.
I've come across a brief Western Mail reference from the time which mentions F.G.B. Mortimer as the new Torquay player/coach, and which ascribes to him a background of having played for Fulham, Leicester Fosse and Swansea Town. I can't place this guy, though Francis Ernest (Fred) Mortimer did indeed figure for both Fosse and Swans, but I have him back in Leicestershire in the post-WW1 era, and that season playing for Coalville Town.
Any elucidation most welcome. Thanks.
PT
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jan 25, 2012 19:01:03 GMT
Are you sure you have got the date right as our first season in the league was 1927? No doubt someone like Jon or Barts can put us right!
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Jan 25, 2012 19:16:13 GMT
As this proves! This is what Jon wrote on the Darlington thread: The Torquay United formed in 1921 was a real professional club. I think that the first season, when we were turned down by the Southern League and so had a limited fixture list, was quite reliant on Plymouth / Exeter / Torquay based players, but entry to the Southern League in 1922 forced us to look further afield.
Bob Preston, later to play for Argyle before returning to us when we were a league team, came from Hearts where he had been captain for the previous five seasons. Thompson, from Dundee, was "one of the finest half backs in Scotland". Miller was "the famous Scottish international centre forward who last played for Scotland in 1920/21".
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 25, 2012 20:13:26 GMT
I've come across a brief Western Mail reference from the time which mentions F.G.B. Mortimer as the new Torquay player/coach, and which ascribes to him a background of having played for Fulham, Leicester Fosse and Swansea Town. I can't place this guy, though Francis Ernest (Fred) Mortimer did indeed figure for both Fosse and Swans, but I have him back in Leicestershire in the post-WW1 era, and that season playing for Coalville Town. Would that be the same piece as carried by the Western Times on 18 August 1921?  I had assumed that this must be Francis Ernest (known a Fred) born in Draycott in 1891, as Micheal Joyce lists him as having played for Leicester and Swansea (but not Fulham). The Mortimer who came to Torquay in 1921 (I would love to confirm if it was Francis Ernest) actually became Torquay United's player-manager half way through the 1924-25 season when Harry Raymond resigned due to the club being on the brink of folding due to a financial crisis. Check back in a week or so - I will try to put together what bits and pieces I have to see if we can work out if FGB and FE were one and the same. |
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Post by leicester on Jan 25, 2012 23:02:14 GMT
Sincere thanks for the prompt attention: the clipping is indeed the same one (despite me mis-naming the paper).
You'll see from the text below (the most recent, 2010, version of a four-times-published – and, of course, immediately out-of-date – Who's Who project on LFFC/LCFC players) why I have profound doubts that 'FGB' of your Western Lge season and 'Fred' are one and the same man, and why I'm digging...
Mortimer, Francis Ernest (Fred)
b. Draycott, Derbyshire, July qtr 1890; d. Leicester, Apr qtr 1963
Career: Grenadier Guards; 1912 Crystal Palace; May 1913 FOSSE; May 1914 Swansea Town; Sept 1919 Bowmar’s Athletic; cs 1920 Rugby Town; cs 1921 Coalville Swifts; Oct 1923 Aylestone St James; 1924 Aylestone WMC.
Fosse debut v Birmingham (A) 20.9.1913
Reputed to have scored 125 goals in three seasons of regimental football, Fred made but a single, scoreless Southern League appearance for Palace after returning to civvy street. The summer of 1913 was pivotal to his future, however, for he first underwent cricket trials with Surrey, and then accompanied Fosse on their Swedish tour, notching ten goals in his five games at centre-forward. A contract was inevitably forthcoming, though Fred started the term as second choice behind Harry Sparrow, and after breaking through was unable as consistently to lift a struggling Second Division side. He hit a hat-trick on his home debut (against Bristol City), but overall shared in a shot-shy campaign at senior level. For the reserves, his 29-goal tally for 1913/14 included the winner in the County Cup Final defeat of Holwell Works. Fred followed manager Jack Bartlett to Swansea, in the lower tier of the Southern League, but was not in the Swans side which humbled Fosse in the FA Cup the following December, having already been recalled for wartime service with the Grenadier Guards. He made brief Filbert Street comebacks before and after receiving a serious arm wound, and later opened a sports outfitter’s business on the Hinckley Road, which sadly bankrupted him in December 1924. That summer he’d been playing his cricket for the City of Leicester WMC.
LFFC Apps: FL 22; FAC 2; WW1 14. Goals: FL 8; FAC 1; WW1 5.
There is the never-ending itch to get these bios as accurate as absolutely possible; but also, in this case, the tasty outside possibility that 'your' man rather misrepresented his credentials when signing on (or talking to the press)... Forgive me for being intrigued...
PT
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 27, 2012 0:34:50 GMT
the tasty outside possibility that 'your' man rather misrepresented his credentials when signing on (or talking to the press)... We had a Chairman here five years ago who claimed to have played in the UEFA Cup for a Czech team and to have been in the England Under 21 squad. We outed him with half an hour of googling and rallied with our pitchforks and lanterns to chase him off. My fellow historian and I have discussed how it would have been so much easier to pull a fast one pre-internet - even easier in the early 20s. To be charitable, it is possible that the journalist just got the wrong end of the stick, saw the surname and assumed it was the Leicester man. Maybe Mortimer knew nothing about it - or maybe he saw it but didn't feel the need to refute it. Who knows? The more I think about it, the more unlikely it is that FGB is FE. FE appears to have been an out and out goalscoring centre forward. FGB was a wing-half in 1921-22, and mostly a full back on his return in 1924. It's not impossible that a centre forward could drop back later in his career, but it doesn't feel right. Any chance you could paste David Tearse's who's who on the thread below? He might be able to add more info for you. torquayfansforum.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=tufchistory&thread=9145&page=1 |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Jan 30, 2012 0:09:14 GMT
Some more on Mr Mortimer. The first cutting , Torquay Times 19/8/21, covers similar ground to the Western Times clip.  Extra info is that he was 30, an inside-right and most interestingly that he was player-coach at Yeovil in 1920-21. It might be worth trying to contact a Yeovil historian - the ciderspace website might be a place to start. I know that Mortimer was still at Torquay in April 1922, so lasted a full season. He was not a first team regular but filled a number of positions at full-back, half-back and inside-forward. I have no record of him in 1922-23 or 1923-24, but by the start of 1924-25, he was player-manager at Newton Town who played in the East Devon League - the same league as TUFC's reserve team. When TUFC hit terrible financial problems, player-manager Harry Raymond resigned and it looked as if the club would close, but eventually the professional players agreed to take big pay cuts to allow the club to limp through to the end of the season. Mortimer returned to the club as player-manager (cutting from Torquay Times 19/12/24) - presumably a relatively cheap option.  I note that FGB is now HGB and Mortimer is now Mortimore. The spelling of the surname is wrong and reverted back to Mortimer in future reports. Strangely, the first name or even initial were never really referred to. Mortimer played regularly after his return, firstly at right-half but later at left-back. As far as I know, he left the club at the end of the 1924-25 season. Percy Mackrill was appointed manager in the 1925 close season and was to lead us into the Football League two years later. |
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