petef
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Post by petef on Sept 1, 2018 12:02:25 GMT
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petef
Match Room Manager
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Post by petef on Sept 1, 2018 12:34:23 GMT
Your welcome Flo. I believe we have some good people ready to scrutinise every move which is re assuring. I still believe there will be an awful lot of local public objection and along with so many other hurdles cant see it happening for a very long time if ever. Still I remain open minded until as long as the council, MP etc are keeping a close eye and closely monitor developments which it appears they are. For sure Torbay and South Devon needs investment and better sports and entertainment facilities and has done for donkeys years - who would argue with that?
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Sept 1, 2018 12:34:32 GMT
If I'm reading it correctly, CO has a lot of work to do to get his plans approved. It seems his meeting with Foster and Thomas was more like a reprimand on how he'd conducted his business so far! Good for them. At the end of the day the new stadium has to offer something more than just being a replacement for Plainmoor so CI can get his developer's paws on it. Quite heartened by the report. Thanks for posting the link, Pete. Surely Co as a seasoned stadia builder would have the following points covered, and I'm surprisd that Co has had to be reminded: 1. Whether the site as a former landfill could physically take the development concerned.
2. A detailed transport assessment, especially in relation to the suggested events arena and traffic arrangements for it.
3. An ecology assessment of whether the site was suitable for such a development.
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simonb
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Post by simonb on Sept 1, 2018 13:25:41 GMT
Surely CO’S plans are just plain daft?
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simonb
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Post by simonb on Sept 2, 2018 7:45:08 GMT
Seasoned stadium builder? Not backed-up by much proof, seems more like a shifty second hand car dealer!
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Sept 2, 2018 7:53:01 GMT
Seasoned stadium builder? Not backed-up by much proof, seems more like a shifty second hand car dealer! Not one built I'm afraid!
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 2, 2018 13:52:54 GMT
Bearing in mind the time frames first mooted for a new stadium it beggars belief that not even a basic viability assessment has been undertaken in respect of what is major and comprehensive multi use development. Also, why after two years of consultation with the mayor this has not been extended to other council members who ultimately are the decision-makers in this process and could have resolved many of these issues is hard to fathom.
Unfortunately, at best it gives the impression of a very amateurish approach and at worse it raises suspicions that the building of a new stadium may not come to pass which appears to have been the outcome of previous projects by the owner and is a risk factor.. Either way, it does not give the Torquay fan too much confidence about this project and the knock on impact on the club. From a football perspective Plainmoor is more than fit for purpose and there must be good realistic reasons to support a relocation. The basic theory of a relocation in partnership with the local authority to improve facilities and job prospects in the bay as well as the viability of the football club is sound though.
What confuses me somewhat is the motive behind this development. Clark Osborne has previously stated that his objective is to come and build the stadium to make the club self-sufficient and then job done will be able to leave and move on. He has again stated that the club will be in receipt of these revenues from the stadium which does have implications in this scenario for the future ownership. However, for a businessman with no connection to the area or the club and no interest in watching the football I do find this behaviour strange that he is willing to take on a potentially risky development and pump significant funds into the club with no clear profit or gain to be made as those potential future income streams will not be capitalised and sold on and any enabling development from land owned by a cash strapped local authority should only be for a proportion of the cost of providing these facilities. I could be wrong but Clarke Osborne does not come across as an altruistic white knight kind of guy so what is his angle from a business perspective?
I can only look at the Swindon speedway development where a number of phases have been built around the track but the design and rebuilding of the stadium has been delayed on countless occasions and I believe it has taken well over a decade to try and bring a new stadium there which is much smaller and less complicated than the proposed venture for Torquay United.
Will there be a similar scenario for us where the enabling development is built all around the ground but endless delays are encountered due to “unforeseen” issues such as stability, structure, drainage, contamination and ecology. Without resolving these issues together with suitable contingencies, the cost and viability of any development cannot be determined and it looks like the cart has been firmly put before the horse.
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Post by loyalgull on Sept 2, 2018 16:41:12 GMT
He will attemot to buy plainmoor with promise of a new stadium that anybody with any savvy knows will not be built,his tricks include renting the ground back to the club like he did bristol rovers and put the rent so high rovers had to sod off i suspect this might be the case with us.
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Post by plainmoorpete on Sept 2, 2018 16:58:45 GMT
There is a lot that is confusing and a lot that just doesn't make any sense. But what is clear is that neither kevin Foster or Dave Thomas are very impressed with it all. And there in lays a risk to our future. Thomas is the leader of the ruling Tory group on the council and if Osbourne's plan falls at the first hurdle then I can see Osbourne ditching the club right away, it is costing him a small fortune to run and it would be almost impossible to sell on because it is still haemorrhaging money nearly four years after Thea Bristow let it go. If Osbourne has no intention to build the arena as many suspect, he would simply ditch the club later on after he has taken his profits from whatever scheme he has concocted.I Looking at it that way the club is probably doomed. It's just a question of time. But if the council turn Osbourne down straight away then the end may be sooner than we think.
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hector
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Post by hector on Sept 2, 2018 17:17:22 GMT
There is a lot that is confusing and a lot that just doesn't make any sense. But what is clear is that neither kevin Foster or Dave Thomas are very impressed with it all. And there in lays a risk to our future. Thomas is the leader of the ruling Tory group on the council and if Osbourne's plan falls at the first hurdle then I can see Osbourne ditching the club right away, it is costing him a small fortune to run and it would be almost impossible to sell on because it is still haemorrhaging money nearly four years after Thea Bristow let it go. If Osbourne has no intention to build the arena as many suspect, he would simply ditch the club later on after he has taken his profits from whatever scheme he has concocted.I Looking at it that way the club is probably doomed. It's just a question of time. But if the council turn Osbourne down straight away then the end may be sooner than we think. I would assume that the likes of Kevin Foster are highly suspicious of Clarke Osborne. Like Rjdgull, I cannot work Osborne’s motives out because we can safely assume he is not doing this out of some benevolent notion. If he is pouring money into the club (which I suspect are loans anyway) then if the club closes he doesn’t get this back should the council refuse him the freehold. You don’t get the impression that other than Gordon Oliver, there is any council support for his scheme, only scepticism. With Oliver’s job due to finish in 6 months and the mayor also cutting a fairly isolated figure amongst his fellow Tories, that leaves Osborne about half a year to work on Oliver in the hope it can sway something happening.
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Sept 2, 2018 17:26:03 GMT
Funny enough I seem to recall or read somewhere that Gaming international or their previous corporate vehicle BS Ltd paid Bristol Rovers money to move out of the stadium. I don’t know if this was the actual case but it would make sense as obtaining the Stadium with no tenant meant it could be sold for another very profitable use. Of course this was after a fire which had reduced the capacity of the ground somewhat making it less attractive for Rovers to stay as “ambitious plans” for it’s redevelopment did not come to fruition. I think the plan maybe is for the above to be undertaken in reverse in that Clarke Osborne would give up or surrender the lease at Plainmoor for the council’s benefit in return for land to be used as the enabling development. More about Eastville can be found HERE
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Sept 2, 2018 23:09:02 GMT
An interesting link here: pitchinvasion.net/eastville-stadium-flowers-fire-gas/An extract: the biggest blow to the ground came in 1980, when a “mysterious” fire broke out in the south stand, with disastrous consequences, as the club’s history describes:
Rovers’ future at Eastville was cast into great doubt following the events of the night of 16-17 August 1980, when a mystery fire badly damaged the South Stand at Eastville. The club’s administrative offices and changing rooms were destroyed. Eastville was left as a shell, with seating only in the North StandI am not sure why there are inverted commas around the word mysterious. Gaming International (or the Bristol Stadium Company as it then was) had wonderful plans for a spectacular new stadium. I am sure Jim Parker and Alpine Joe will be surprised to hear that it never happened. On top of this, the club continued to pay the price for not owning their own ground. The actual owners of the stadium, Bristol Stadium Company, came up with perhaps one of the most ambitious ideas in the history of lower league clubs: in 1983, they announced their intention to transform the ground into an all-seater venue with a sliding roof.
Neither this plan nor Rovers own attempts to build a new stadium panned out, and when the stadium’s owners decided to raise the rent on Rovers in 1986, the decision was made to leave their historic home and groundshare with Bath City instead.But one man's misfortune is another man's fortune and it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. Gaming International was able to book £800,552 of extraordinary profit - presumably the excess of insurance receipts over repair costs. (BS Group 1989 annual report p31) Small beer compared to the millions made from the site after turning Rovers out, but better than a poke in the eye with a pointed stick. And of course Rovers may not have felt the need to leave if they still had their grandstand intact.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Sept 2, 2018 23:28:16 GMT
Extract: "consultancies in these areas had been appointed to draw up detailed assessments ( At TUFC’s not Torbay Council’s expense)" So Torquay United is paying for this charade. Remember this when Clarke Osborne expects to be paid back the money he has lent to Torquay United.
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Rob
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Post by Rob on Sept 2, 2018 23:38:03 GMT
Extract: "consultancies in these areas had been appointed to draw up detailed assessments ( At TUFC’s not Torbay Council’s expense)" So Torquay United is paying for this charade. Remember this when Clarke Osborne expects to be paid back the money he has lent to Torquay United. And, by the same token, if anyone thinks that ‘enabling development’ would add profit for TUFC, they probably need their head read, right?
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Sept 2, 2018 23:42:54 GMT
it would be almost impossible to sell on because it is still haemorrhaging money You don't sell a loss-making football club, you give it away. Thea gave it away to Phillips, Balson and co. Unfortunately, they decided to hawk a promise of the freehold around property developers to try to turn something they bought for £1 into something they could sell for "the price of a detached house". As I said at the time, Dave Phillips signed the club's death warrant. The good news is that the council has kept hold of the freehold. It will be the end of Torquay United AFC Limited (the limited company formed in 1921) - unless Osborne is realistic about walking away from his losses. It won't be the end of Torquay United in some form or other.
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