JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Feb 27, 2012 17:52:50 GMT
Shankly is one of those managers who is remembered more for what he said than what he actually achieved, though, and with good reason - he didn't actually achieve all that much when compared to many of his contemporaries and predecessors. His win record at Liverpool wasn't all that great - only (though still decent) a 52% win rate and 3 league titles over 15 years, which at a club like Liverpool isn't all that special. Paisley was far more successful. I would've thought you would at least have gone for someone like Sir Alex Ferguson, who has won 15 league titles, 2 European Cups, 2 Cup Winners Cups, and 14 domestic cup competitions over the course of his career, despite ignoring a lot of the tactical advances that have happened during that time
To dismiss what I've written simply on the basis that it's long and complicated is daft. The fact is Shankly had tactics just the same as every other manager (that's what the Boot Room was for), and it would be extremely naive to believe that was anything but the case. Brian Clough's the same, despite usually being cited in similar debates, The reason they look "simple" in comparison is because the game has advanced so much over the last 40 years. It's another world - the players are much faster, fitter and more capable of playing in different ways. If Shankly was around today, he would either be adopting the modern methods just the same as Dalglish has since coming back into football management, or he wouldn't be in management full stop
If Torquay went out there "keeping it simple" for a whole season in the way you all seem to want, we would be relegated. Guaranteed. You can't do it any more. There's nothing wrong with playing physically but just sticking it out to the wingers and crossing it to a big man for a season doesn't work any more. The managers have it all figured out - we'd be passed off the park. That's not an ideological position - that's fact
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rjdgull
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Post by rjdgull on Feb 27, 2012 18:31:04 GMT
I think a winger putting the ball in the box is always going to cause problems of some type or another. However, just winding back a bit, the front three of Bodin, Howe and Stevens have 5, 9 and 7 goals respectively and together were a significant goal threat combined with the goals from elsewhere across the park. I think Morris has since chipped in with a couple but from corners only and I think a combination of Howe in a bad streak of form with the loss of Bodin has seen us lose a lot of potency in front of goal. We have scored 11 goals from the first nine games of 2012 and somehow have won seven of them.  I think Bodin is the only loanee so far to have been played and he was Kee's replacement so we are actually weaker now than at the start of the season. Trusting in his squad earlier on in the season was the right decision then but even the manager has now stated he needs one or two more signings and I don't think this is in doubt. With 14 games left, I think we need something different to freshen things up, give the current players some competition as well as opposing managers food for thought. |
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petef
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Post by petef on Feb 27, 2012 18:52:31 GMT
I rather long for the old system of - Two full backs- a Centre half - Two half backs - Two inside forwards - Two wingers - and - Robin Stubbs at centre forward.
(Imagines some very puzzled young faces)
I don't think the word midfield even existed in those days.
It would be awfully strange to see two sides set up that way now but I reckon it would be entertaining to watch.
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Feb 27, 2012 19:03:57 GMT
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Post by stewart on Feb 27, 2012 19:57:10 GMT
The reason they look "simple" in comparison is because the game has advanced so much over the last 40 years. That is entirely a matter of opinion with which any longstanding observer could never agree. Bill Shankly, Brian Clough and others of that era relied on their strength of personality and charisma to get the best out of their players. They were not concerned with spelling out tactics to the nth degree, but gave their teams a rough quide as to areas on which to concentrate and left the rest to them. As you have pointed out, in the present time there are still a few managers who do this, among them Sir Alex and Harry, and this is what makes their teams' style of playing so attractive. Herein lies the problem: you say that the managers have it all figured out. The truth is that the vast majority of managers in the present era have far too much niggly imput and influence. Many of them stand on the touchline throughout the match and scream and gesticulate, get forward, get back, go here, go there; they stop to show substitutes diagrams of God knows what, then back to more screaming and gesticulating. Most of them seem to have adopted the tactics of keeping the ball at any cost, and also of playing with only one forward. In my opinion, the only things they have figured out is how to stifle any enjoyment for spectators, and also how to delay losing their jobs by appearing to be doing something. The content of PeteF's last post would certainly be welcome as far as I am concerned, but it would only work if every team followed suit and stopped being bogged down by this tactical quagmire. |
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Post by lambethgull on Feb 27, 2012 21:26:00 GMT
I remember listening to Barry Fry being interviewed as Peterborough boss about 15 years or so ago and him saying " you don't need tactics at this level". Okay, that was decade and a half ago, Fry's record isn't up there with Alex Ferguson's, and there was probably more than bit of blarney going on. But his point, as I took it, was that so long as you have the right group of players in place then things generally take care of themselves. There are some things that have moved on over the years. Diet, fitness regimes and medical science have improved massively (though probably not as much in lower leagues). But have tactics? I reckon a solid back four, pace on the flanks, a ball winner and a good passer of the ball in the middle and two decent centre forwards (one pacey, one good in the air) is a formula that, providing you've got the personnel, is as much a winning formula now as it was thirty or forty years ago. Stefano played the game to a good level, and watches games with an ex-player's eye. If he doesn't know what people are on about when they're reeling off these strategies and formations, then I for one feel a little bit better!  |
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JamesB
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Post by JamesB on Feb 27, 2012 21:29:16 GMT
The reason they look "simple" in comparison is because the game has advanced so much over the last 40 years. That is entirely a matter of opinion with which any longstanding observer could never agree. I very much doubt that. 40 years ago, the best player in the world was a chain smoker Ironically he was part of one of the teams that set the tactical ball rolling, the Ajax side that won 3 European Cups in a row, beating many a good side to do so, including the double-winning Arsenal side. Rinus Michels opened Pandora's Box with Total Football. Once players got fitter and technically more adept, managers were able to shift the tactics to new areas. It's easy to deal with teams with one-dimensional players who are only in there for one purpose - if you have a team reliant on strikers to score, if you stop the strikers then it's easy to stop the team from scoring. But it's difficult to deal with players who can do many things, hence why Messi is the best forward, Xavi and Iniesta are the best midfielders, and Gerard Pique and Dani Alves are the best defenders - they all do a bit of everything. And that's why Barcelona are the best team in the world - they get goals from everywhere, and the players all chip in with defending as well 10 of the top English language football writers recently did an experiment where they did an American-style draft to build their own superteams, with all players from history at their peak. These teams were then put into Football Manager 2012, and then an 18 match season was simulated in the game. The team that ultimately won was the one with a front 4 of Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. Ronaldo was also the Player of the Season. It may only be a game, but it's the most accurate representation we're going to get of a comparison between all the great players, and clearly the levels of fitness and technical ability of the modern players easily trump the players from the "good old days", particularly the older defenders. Equally, the current defenders would be able to snuff out the older attackers, other than poachers like Eusebio, Fontaine and Gerd Muller sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/draft/ultimate/draft-results.html |
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Post by stewart on Feb 27, 2012 21:39:11 GMT
That is entirely a matter of opinion with which any longstanding observer could never agree. I very much doubt that. 40 years ago, the best player in the world was a chain smoker Ironically he was part of one of the teams that set the tactical ball rolling, the Ajax side that won 3 European Cups in a row, beating many a good side to do so, including the double-winning Arsenal side. Rinus Michels opened Pandora's Box with Total Football. Once players got fitter and technically more adept, managers were able to shift the tactics to new areas. It's easy to deal with teams with one-dimensional players who are only in there for one purpose - if you have a team reliant on strikers to score, if you stop the strikers then it's easy to stop the team from scoring. But it's difficult to deal with players who can do many things, hence why Messi is the best forward, Xavi and Iniesta are the best midfielders, and Gerard Pique and Dani Alves are the best defenders - they all do a bit of everything. And that's why Barcelona are the best team in the world - they get goals from everywhere, and the players all chip in with defending as well 10 of the top English language football writers recently did an experiment where they did an American-style draft to build their own superteams, with all players from history at their peak. These teams were then put into Football Manager 2012, and then an 18 match season was simulated in the game. The team that ultimately won was the one with a front 4 of Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. Ronaldo was also the Player of the Season. It may only be a game, but it's the most accurate representation we're going to get of a comparison between all the great players, and clearly the levels of fitness and technical ability of the modern players easily trump the players from the "good old days", particularly the older defenders. Equally, the current defenders would be able to snuff out the older attackers, other than poachers like Eusebio, Fontaine and Gerd Muller sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/draft/ultimate/draft-results.htmlOh dear !! I was comparing ways of playing the game then and now, not which players were better. I give up, you carry on with your analyses and Football Manager strategies to your heart's content. |
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chelstongull
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Post by chelstongull on Feb 27, 2012 21:44:55 GMT
That is entirely a matter of opinion with which any longstanding observer could never agree. I very much doubt that. 40 years ago, the best player in the world was a chain smoker Ironically he was part of one of the teams that set the tactical ball rolling, the Ajax side that won 3 European Cups in a row, beating many a good side to do so, including the double-winning Arsenal side. Rinus Michels opened Pandora's Box with Total Football. Once players got fitter and technically more adept, managers were able to shift the tactics to new areas. It's easy to deal with teams with one-dimensional players who are only in there for one purpose - if you have a team reliant on strikers to score, if you stop the strikers then it's easy to stop the team from scoring. But it's difficult to deal with players who can do many things, hence why Messi is the best forward, Xavi and Iniesta are the best midfielders, and Gerard Pique and Dani Alves are the best defenders - they all do a bit of everything. And that's why Barcelona are the best team in the world - they get goals from everywhere, and the players all chip in with defending as well 10 of the top English language football writers recently did an experiment where they did an American-style draft to build their own superteams, with all players from history at their peak. These teams were then put into Football Manager 2012, and then an 18 match season was simulated in the game. The team that ultimately won was the one with a front 4 of Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. Ronaldo was also the Player of the Season. It may only be a game, but it's the most accurate representation we're going to get of a comparison between all the great players, and clearly the levels of fitness and technical ability of the modern players easily trump the players from the "good old days", particularly the older defenders. Equally, the current defenders would be able to snuff out the older attackers, other than poachers like Eusebio, Fontaine and Gerd Muller sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/draft/ultimate/draft-results.htmlWell I must be as thick as a whale omelette as I still can't see the comparison between Torquay United of the 4th tier of English football and the above twaddle, bollocks and piffle - of course Rooney is going to be fitter than and faster than Steve Flack - different times. All I want is a few players to pep things up a bit and we end up some bloke opening poor old Pandora's box (did she say it could be opened) and some block called incest - never heard of him. I take it, he must live north of the 'Kerwell Arch. You will all be pleased as this is my last post on the matter - now who was the git that bought up Mo earlier? |
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petef
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Post by petef on Feb 27, 2012 21:51:40 GMT
I very much doubt that. 40 years ago, the best player in the world was a chain smoker Ironically he was part of one of the teams that set the tactical ball rolling, the Ajax side that won 3 European Cups in a row, beating many a good side to do so, including the double-winning Arsenal side. Rinus Michels opened Pandora's Box with Total Football. Once players got fitter and technically more adept, managers were able to shift the tactics to new areas. It's easy to deal with teams with one-dimensional players who are only in there for one purpose - if you have a team reliant on strikers to score, if you stop the strikers then it's easy to stop the team from scoring. But it's difficult to deal with players who can do many things, hence why Messi is the best forward, Xavi and Iniesta are the best midfielders, and Gerard Pique and Dani Alves are the best defenders - they all do a bit of everything. And that's why Barcelona are the best team in the world - they get goals from everywhere, and the players all chip in with defending as well 10 of the top English language football writers recently did an experiment where they did an American-style draft to build their own superteams, with all players from history at their peak. These teams were then put into Football Manager 2012, and then an 18 match season was simulated in the game. The team that ultimately won was the one with a front 4 of Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. Ronaldo was also the Player of the Season. It may only be a game, but it's the most accurate representation we're going to get of a comparison between all the great players, and clearly the levels of fitness and technical ability of the modern players easily trump the players from the "good old days", particularly the older defenders. Equally, the current defenders would be able to snuff out the older attackers, other than poachers like Eusebio, Fontaine and Gerd Muller sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/draft/ultimate/draft-results.htmlWell I must be as thick as a whale omelette as I still can't see the comparison between Torquay United of the 4th tier of English football and the above twaddle, bollocks and piffle - of course Rooney is going to be fitter than and faster than Steve Flack - different times. All I want is a few players to pep things up a bit and we end up some bloke opening poor old Pandora's box (did she say it could be opened) and some block called incest - never heard of him. I take it, he must live north of the 'Kerwell Arch. You will all be pleased as this is my last post on the matter - now who was the git that bought up Mo earlier? Mo who? do you mean CaCaCaC... no I wont do it must be Mo the bar tender in the Simpsons who serves up pints of Piffle!  |
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Post by jmgull on Feb 27, 2012 22:04:13 GMT
But obviously this is quite easy to figure out, given that I, a relative novice who's only managerial experience is on Football Manager ;D Wouldn't have guessed |
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Post by stefano on Feb 27, 2012 22:14:14 GMT
You will all be pleased as this is my last post on the matter - now who was the git that bought up Mo earlier? I liked him |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Feb 27, 2012 22:54:25 GMT
10 of the top English language football writers recently did an experiment where they did an American-style draft to build their own superteams, with all players from history at their peak. These teams were then put into Football Manager 2012, and then an 18 match season was simulated in the game. The team that ultimately won was the one with a front 4 of Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Wayne Rooney and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. Ronaldo was also the Player of the Season. It may only be a game, but it's the most accurate representation we're going to get of a comparison between all the great players, and clearly the levels of fitness and technical ability of the modern players easily trump the players from the "good old days", particularly the older defenders. Equally, the current defenders would be able to snuff out the older attackers, other than poachers like Eusebio, Fontaine and Gerd Muller I must be 35 years ahead of my time. In a similar experiment, I pitted the 1976 TUFC team against the 1970 Brazil team in a game of subbuteo. The result was a clear win for Torquay and pretty conclusive proof that Willie Brown was a more complete no. 10 than Pele. |
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Feb 27, 2012 23:05:32 GMT
Shankly ....didn't actually achieve all that much ...... 3 league titles over 15 years, which at a club like Liverpool isn't all that special. Paisley was far more successful. When you take on a run-of-the-mill second division team, three league titles, two FA Cups and a UEFA Cup is quite a spectacular return actually. Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish did not have to build a football club. Shankly had already done it. |
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Post by stuartB on Feb 27, 2012 23:09:00 GMT
Shankly ....didn't actually achieve all that much ...... 3 league titles over 15 years, which at a club like Liverpool isn't all that special. Paisley was far more successful. When you take on a run-of-the-mill second division team, three league titles, two FA Cups and a UEFA Cup is quite a spectacular return actually. Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish did not have to build a football club. Shankly had already done it. with that sort of argument you would say that Roy Mac gave Leroy success but that would be bollox!! |
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